how can i do that?? chopin prelude

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scorn
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how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by scorn » Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:15 am

chopin1.JPG
i tried to do it but i don't know how to put the g in the f key
any help???

Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

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zuill
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 03, 2020 3:01 pm

This can be done, but it is extremely difficult, unless you are really knowledgeable about Finale's inner workings.

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scorn
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by scorn » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:10 pm

ok very scary, but at least i know what to do , (nothing lol)
i'm gonna analyze another prelude then
thanks bro

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zuill
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:23 pm

If you want, I can post the Finale file for you to examine. I had to use some trickery due to some strange unexpected behavior that I didn't notice until after I had exported the picture. Possibly that is only a bug when exporting pictures through the Graphics Tool.

Zuill

P.S.: Unfortunately, the error I referred to affects pdf printing and real printing. Odd behavior I've not seen before, that I recall.
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Peter Thomsen
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:47 pm

Zuill,

I did not experience any error in the Graphics Tool (with Mac Finale).
What was the error?
Possibly a Windows-only issue?
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Peter Thomsen
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:53 pm

That “tenor voice” rhythm in the lower staff has confused many in-experienced piano students.

The culprit is the dot on the 8th note, causing an “in-correct” tenor voice rhythm that looks like a quintuplet.

If a such piano piece were composed today, the layout would probably use a 4tr instead of the dotted 8th.

Chopin prelude.jpg
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zuill
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:42 pm

Yes. The Chopin rhythm is incorrect. I faked it, so playback is not quite right.

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motet
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by motet » Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:56 am

What about if Peter's quarter was instead two eighth notes beamed together and tied?

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Peter Thomsen
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:13 am

zuill wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:42 pm
Yes. The Chopin rhythm is incorrect. I faked it, so playback is not quite right …
It can be done without faking it.

See the attached Finale document.
The dotted 8th is a hidden tuplet:
1 Dotted Eighth in the space of 2 Eighths.

Chopin example.musx
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Peter Thomsen
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:18 am

motet wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:56 am
What about if Peter's quarter was instead two eighth notes beamed together and tied?
In my opinion that is another valid way to skin the cat.
Some piano students might find the rhythm easier to read when the “tenor voice” rhythm is notated with two tied notes.
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motet
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by motet » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:35 am

I think what's hard/odd is a single note belonging to both triplets, but on the other hand the vertical alignment vertical alignment makes it pretty straight-forward.

scorn
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by scorn » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:42 am

well you're discussing about chopin which is one of the greatest composers of all times
i don't know if you are right , if you were , then the document shouldn't be in all the conservatories with the same notation
i believe that editors can't let that happen , a score which is wrong ,
i think there is something you are missing here , but i saw this prelude everywhere in every edition with the same notation
so i guess everything is right even if at first sight it seems not ..

in the end i still don't know how to write this down with finale

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David Ward
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by David Ward » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:08 am

scorn wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:42 am
well you're discussing about chopin which is one of the greatest composers of all times
i don't know if you are right , if you were , then the document shouldn't be in all the conservatories with the same notation
i believe that editors can't let that happen , a score which is wrong ,
i think there is something you are missing here , but i saw this prelude everywhere in every edition with the same notation
so i guess everything is right even if at first sight it seems not ..
Notation conventions have changed somewhat since then. There's no absolute, inflexible right and wrong for all time; but a modern composer would probably be unlikely to notate it the Chopin way.

Finale responds most easily to current rather than to nineteenth century conventions, but it's flexible enough to cope if it has to.

If John Ruggero sees this thread he may have something relevant to say.
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Peter Thomsen
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:42 am

scorn wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:42 am
… in the end i still don't know how to write this down with finale
Did you examine the Finale document I attached (= Chopin example.musx)?

I suppose that you are already familiar with layers, and have found out, how to use Layer 1 and Layer 2 - right?

This thread already has discussed the rhythm notation.
I suppose that the rhythm is not a problem for you now - right?

What is still missing, is the way to create the cross staff notes (= the first right hand note ‘g’, and the last left hand note ‘a’).


Here goes:


1) Enter the first right hand note (= ‘g’), not in the bottom staff, but rather in the top staff (as a low ‘g’ in the top staff).
Use the Note Mover Tool to make the note display in the bottom staff:
Note Mover menu > Cross Staff
Click the measure in the top staff, to make handles appear on the right hand notes.
Drag the ‘g’s handle down into the bottom staff - and you are done.


2) For the last note (= ‘a’) I suggest that you work smarter, not harder - by using the Cross Staff plug-in.
In the top staff, in Layer 2, enter the last, lower triplet (all three notes, including the low ‘a’).
Document menu > Show Active Layer Only (select this)
Now only the Layer 2 notes are shown, to be edited (the now hidden Layer 1 notes will not be affected).

Selection Tool.
In the top staff, drag-select only the region with the last note (= ‘a’).
To select the (small) region, begin the dragging outside the staff.

Fortunately the Cross Staff plug-in has a keyboard shortcut:
Hold down the correct modifier key (= Alt, I think), and hit the DownArrow key.
The Cross Staff plug-in will move the ‘a’ down into the bottom staff, and it will also flip the stem direction, and put the beaming between the staves.

Document menu > Show Active Layer Only (de-select this)

You may need to adjust the beam angle or the stem length.
* Do you know, how to do so?

If you have more questions, let us know.


By The Way:
You can find the Cross Staff plug-in here:
Plug-ins menu > TG Tools > Cross Staff…
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zuill
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by zuill » Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:41 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:13 am
zuill wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:42 pm
Yes. The Chopin rhythm is incorrect. I faked it, so playback is not quite right …
It can be done without faking it.

See the attached Finale document.
The dotted 8th is a hidden tuplet:
1 Dotted Eighth in the space of 2 Eighths.


Chopin example.musx
Got it.

Zuill
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motet
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by motet » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:49 pm

I did this last night and found it challenging to do, even without the incorrect dotted eighth.

This version doesn't have a note shared by two separate triplets, but it does beam between triplets since there's no room for a flag, which is still a little hinky.

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motet
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by motet » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:52 pm

By the way, I discovered that you try to hide the first note (in my case a rest) of a tuplet--the bracket and number disappear!

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zuill
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by zuill » Fri Sep 04, 2020 5:05 pm

That's what I found. I saw that Peter dragged it to the Bass staff. I hid it, and lost the number and bracket as well.

Zuill
Last edited by zuill on Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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motet
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Re: how can i do that?? chopin prelude

Post by motet » Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:06 pm

I ended up dragging the rest down from above as well, which of course won't survive changes to inter-staff spacing. I originally was going to use the rest that went along with the "tenor" G.

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