Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

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bj nick
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Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by bj nick » Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:43 pm

Thanks to good suggestions on here, I'm using alt-9 regularly to set various "--lets" and it works great. But I'm confused over something that sometimes happens: I'll set up a, let's say.....12-let....twelve 32nds =1 quarter note. But in bars where I've done that, usually there's other notes after it, in this case, a dotted quarter, then an eighth note. If I try to do anything with the dotted quarter, it immediately attaches itself to the 12-let.....can't figure it out. I've attached the bar in question (but it happens in various different measures; not always.) In bar one in the example attached, I can work with the notes that come after the 12-let......but in bar 3, changing the dotted quarter to, say, triplets or whatever.....they attach to the 12-let. I'm breaking a rule or something.....enlightenment sought.

Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by motet » Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:02 pm

If you look at the alignment of notes with the piano, you'll see that something's amiss. The dotted quarter in the Flute should line up with the half note in the right hand, not the final quarter in the left hand.. I was able to do it in Simple entry as you see, so I don't know what happened. When you create such a tuplet, don't delete the ensuing rests--just continue entering, which will replace them.

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by bj nick » Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:37 pm

Thanks, super helpful. I get it. So...in the future I have to manually make sure things like this line up? Also: how do I go in and modify an existing tuplet variation? So let's say I wanted to modify a sextuplet and make it a septuplet....or take my 12-let and make it 13? I've tried selecting and getting to the tuplet dialog box but I can't get the sequence right; it just clangs angrily at me.

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by motet » Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:43 pm

bj nick wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 6:37 pm
...in the future I have to manually make sure things like this line up?
If you deleted the rests, you triggered a bug, I think. Don't delete the rests and you should be OK. What you have in the file you posted is best deleted and re-entered, I think.

It's possible to make the 12 into 13 by turning off "check for extra notes", inserting the note, then using the separate tuplet tool. Don't forget to turn "check for extra notes" back on afterwards, or you could get into trouble. Might be easier to just re-enter everything, though.

You might instead want to work things out on paper first so you can enter it right the first time and safe yourself grief.

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:06 pm

motet wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:02 pm
If you look at the alignment of notes with the piano, you'll see that something's amiss. The dotted quarter in the Flute should line up with the half note in the right hand, not the final quarter in the left hand.. I was able to do it in Simple entry as you see, so I don't know what happened. When you create such a tuplet, don't delete the ensuing rests--just continue entering, which will replace them.
What causes the notes to be off in the measure in question can be seen by going to Special tools/Note Position Tool. Highlight all the handles of the notes in the upper staff and press Backspace, and then they will lign up with the other staves.

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by zuill » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:11 pm

Regarding Tuplets, the only one I see in this file is in bar 2 (12 32nds in place of 1 quarter). And it seems nothing else is attached to it. Am I missing something?

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by bj nick » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:20 pm

Hi, this is semi-resolved, but I still need to work through a couple of your suggestions for the future. New/same issue, who knows......trying to enter eighth note followed by triplet 16ths as seen in the attached file.....tuplet function won't do it, alt. 9 won't do it.....it just spits out garbage... Is this another bug? Or user (me) error?

I got the result I wanted here by notating it with quarter followed by triplets, then changing note durations by 1/2. I'd rather not have to do the work-around if possible.....

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by miker » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:42 pm

I don't understand. What you have looks right, and it works for me. Can you be a bit more specific?
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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by zuill » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:13 pm

I have no problem either. Works perfectly for me.

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:14 pm

bj nick,

To reproduce the problem we need to know the steps you have taken.

What are you trying to achieve?
How are you trying to do it?
What happens when you do that?
What doesn't happen that you expect to happen?

Meanwhile, take a look at the tuplet tutorial on Mike’s web site:
http://www.specialmillwork.com/finaletips.htm
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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by bj nick » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:39 pm

I guess I wasn't clear: (btw straight 4/4 time) I want figures which consist of an eighth note followed by triplet sixteenths = 1 quarter note. It's a standard figure in classical music but never had to use it before. My example showed it AS I WANT IT. "I got the result I wanted here by notating it with quarter followed by triplets, then changing note durations by 1/2."

I've attached another example of exactly what I need over a few bars.....all of these I got by using the work-around above: using a quarter note then eighth note triplets, then selecting the bars and reducing their durations by 1/2.

Thanks for sticking with me on this, guys....

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by zuill » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:44 pm

Sounds like way too much trouble. I have a question. When you press alt-9, what does it say as the tuplet definition? Does it look like the attached?

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by bj nick » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:00 pm

I get the dialog box of course, and I figure I should enter "6 16ths in the space of one quarter note....figure the eighth note will take the place of 3 sixteenths (I know it's not mathematical; should be 2 sixteenths, but if six sixteenths are one quarter, then three are an eighth note), but can't get it to work. I've tried various configurations, without success.

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by motet » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:03 pm

It's a triplet, not a sextuplet. That's why there's a "3".

Enter the eighth and then the first C# sixteenth note. Go to the Alt+9 dialog and pick "3 current duration in the space of 2 current duration." Enter the remaining two sixteenths.

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by bj nick » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:30 pm

Okay, that does the trick! Thanks......sort of a pain to keep having to hit alt. 9 four times in a measure, but maybe I'll just copy the figure then change the notes.....anyway, thank you!

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by motet » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:35 pm

There's a default tuplet setting (initialling 3 (use current duration) in the space of 2 (use current duration)). If that's what you want, then you need only press 9 each time (no Alt) after entering the first note of the triplet.

Sorry to say RTFM (Read the Finale Manual), but I suspect it will be time well spent, and save you a lot of flailing around in the long run.

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by bj nick » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:49 pm

Usually I do RTFM, but I often find it confusing, sorry to say. And often I'll try RTFM, then search the web for the answer, not find it, and finally I post. What usually perplexes me is things where it doesn't seem to make any sense.....like this example I just attached. All I wish to do is replace the one-beat rest in bar one with a triplet figure (3 eighths= 1 quarter) but it will not do it....it starts attaching the next figure in the bar.....makes a mess of it. It does work properly in the next bar where there's a rest at the end. This is the stuff I don't get....where something is going on behind the music, a setting, whatever, and I can't fathom why I'm having the issue. If I see a quarter rest, why can't I just replace that with a triplet figure? fwiw: tried alt. 9, tried tuplet tool, no dice.

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:23 pm

bj nick,

No need to enter a new triplet in this case.

This works for me:

Selection Tool.

Drag-select the second beat (begin outside the staff).

Copy (Edit menu).

Drag-select (only) the third beat (begin outside the staff).

Paste (Edit menu).

Now the triplet from beat 2 has been copied to beat 3.
You can adjust the pitches up/down as needed.
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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by motet » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:08 pm

I am happy to answer your questions here, bj nick. Just thinking that Alt+9 versus 9 must be described in the manual.

Simple entry is not very good about inserting notes in the middle of a measure, so you sometimes need to resort to tricks such as Peter's.

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by miker » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:42 pm

I am having absolutely no trouble. bj nick, would you like to call me? I will teach you how to do this in simple entry in 60 seconds.

Motet, the difference between Alt-9 and 9 is this: Alt-9 takes you to the tuplet definition box, where you define the tuplet. You have a checkbox there to save that configuration as the default. Once that's checked, tapping 9 will set up that default config. So you only need the Alt if you are going to change the tuplet from the default.

I can enter tuplets at the beginning, the middle, or the end with no deletions (except in a few rare cases), no fancy tricks.
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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by motet » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:53 pm

miker wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:42 pm
Motet, the difference between Alt-9 and 9 is this: Alt-9 takes you to the tuplet definition box, where you define the tuplet. You have a checkbox there to save that configuration as the default. Once that's checked, tapping 9 will set up that default config. So you only need the Alt if you are going to change the tuplet from the default.
I tried to convey that:
motet wrote:There's a default tuplet setting (initialling 3 (use current duration) in the space of 2 (use current duration)). If that's what you want, then you need only press 9 each time (no Alt) after entering the first note of the triplet.
How do you enter a note between two other notes in Simple entry? I don't use Simple entry much but I've never been able to figure that out. Do you need to use the mouse?
miker wrote:
I can enter tuplets at the beginning, the middle, or the end with no deletions (except in a few rare cases), no fancy tricks.

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by miker » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:12 pm

Motet asked:
How do you enter a note between two other notes in Simple entry? I don't use Simple entry much but I've never been able to figure that out. Do you need to use the mouse?


Yes. You would have to click in with the mouse. Can you do it in Speedy?
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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by motet » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:29 pm

Yes, Speedy has a toggleable Insert/Replace mode.

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by bj nick » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:24 pm

miker wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:42 pm
I am having absolutely no trouble. bj nick, would you like to call me? I will teach you how to do this in simple entry in 60 seconds.

Motet, the difference between Alt-9 and 9 is this: Alt-9 takes you to the tuplet definition box, where you define the tuplet. You have a checkbox there to save that configuration as the default. Once that's checked, tapping 9 will set up that default config. So you only need the Alt if you are going to change the tuplet from the default.

I can enter tuplets at the beginning, the middle, or the end with no deletions (except in a few rare cases), no fancy tricks.
Hey Mike, I just feel like I don't want to bother you with the personal call unless I've exhausted the other means....don't want to take advantage of your good nature. Looks like for the moment the suggestions have worked and I'm okay.....your help has been invaluable, both on the forum and on the phone.

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Re: Using alt-9 to set tuplets/sextuplets/anything-lets

Post by bj nick » Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:28 pm

motet wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:08 pm
I am happy to answer your questions here, bj nick. Just thinking that Alt+9 versus 9 must be described in the manual.

Simple entry is not very good about inserting notes in the middle of a measure, so you sometimes need to resort to tricks such as Peter's.
Motet: I really appreciate the help. As I said before: sometimes yeah, the manual makes it very simple and solves the issue. But oftentimes I try what they say and it does not work, then I research it out on the web, don't find a good answer there, and at that point I try the forum. I don't just say hey, I wonder what this button is for? And go to the forum cuz I'm too lazy to click on "help." Like with the previous issue: I followed all instructions, did that they say, again and again, turns out it's a bug.

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