Adding percussion sounds

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rpoepa
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Post by rpoepa » Thu May 13, 2021 8:17 pm

I'm transcribing an orchestra piece and learning more than I ever wanted to know about percussion and MIDI but I have reached a brick wall. I was trying to learn just enough about how Finale handles percussion playback to get the job done, but I think I just don't understand enough.

I have one part which is using the Percussion MIDI Layout. But only a few of the Note Types have assigned MIDI Notes.The ones which don't such as wood block, do not make a sound in playback when I add them to the score.

How do I get the rest of the sounds? And what does it mean if there is a Note number assigned but it is in parentheses?

That's an abbreviated description of my journey so far. What I actually did was create a duplicate layout, then delete everything except the instruments I thought I needed. But I had to add a few more in, such as a cymbal roll and a snare roll. Those sound as expected when I add them in.

I can't remember the exact procedure but it involved using the MIDI Map Editor and searching for the instrument I needed.

Wood block I was able to get by doing a Change Instruments, and it sounds fine. But in doing so, my Percussion line is no longer accessing the other percussion instruments.

That will no longer work, because I now need both cymbal and wood block at the same time and some other sounds as well. So I'm back to trying to get the wood block to work within the Percussion Layout, where it has no assigned MIDI Note.

What am I missing?


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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu May 13, 2021 8:43 pm

The parentheses indicate a sound which is in the Layout, but not in the selected Map. Finale uses this as a teaser to buy the full GPO. In other words, they include instruments that aren't in the GIfF set, but can be accessed if the full GPO is paid for.

If you have a sample file we can examine, we might be able to see if we can find a way to get what you want with only the GIfF set. Sometimes you can use a second layer using a different Map that will get missing sounds. However, it is not always easy to get the proper result. MakeMusic reinvented the whole percussion thing, but it introduced a whole new set of problems. The biggest of these is that, basically, files are only usable on your system. sending files to others without your sounds (GPO, for example, if that is what you use) means they won't be able to play it back correctly, without sounds missing.

Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

rpoepa
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Post by rpoepa » Thu May 13, 2021 8:53 pm

That's not a problem because I only need it to play on this machine. I'm creating the orchestra part for a piano and orchestra piece, and Finale's playback capabilities are great for giving me an orchestra I can control while learning. :)
If you have a sample file we can examine, we might be able to see if we can find a way to get what you want with only the GIfF set. Sometimes you can use a second layer using a different Map that will get missing sounds.
Let's talk about Wood Block. I know this sound is in your sound files because I can Change Instruments and hear it.

How do I get to hear it when I'm using the Percussion Layout? It sounds like this "second layer" approach might be the answer.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu May 13, 2021 9:28 pm

Well, since we can't see your file, we don't know which Map and Layout you are using. Let's start with that. If you modified the Map or Layout, we need to know that as well.

Zuill

P.S.: I was about to post a sample file, and then I realize we don't know what version of Finale, or OS, you are using.
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rpoepa
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Post by rpoepa » Fri May 14, 2021 12:38 am

Mac OSX Big Sur 11.1
Finale Version 26.3.1.643

Here is an example of one of the things I tried. I am doing all this through the Score Manager. Sorry about the blurriness, I had to compress these because the original screen shots were too large and it wouldn't let me attach.

I duplicated the Percussion Layout to create a new one called BD, SD, Cym and deleted everything but Bass Drum, Snare Drum, and Cymbal. Later I found I needed a Snare Roll and a Cymbal Roll, and I successfully added them. They have MIDI Note numbers and they sound the way they're supposed to sound.

I click on Edit and see the Percussion Layout Designer. You can see the instruments that I have here. You'll also see Slapstick. That's another one I'd like but could never hear. I manually typed in MIDI Number 28 because I read that number elsewhere on this forum when somebody was asking about Slapstick. It has no effect.
Finale Screen Shot 2021-05-13 at 8.19.00 PM.png
Now I try to add the Wood Block. I click "New" next to where it says "Current Percussion MIDI Map: Basic Orchestral Percussion". I get the map editor. I click the dropdown "Select a Note Type to Add" and navigate to High Woodblock, then Add Note Type.
Finale Screen Shot 2021-05-13 at 8.19.49 PM.png
It is now in my instrument list and I can add it to my score. But it is assigned the MIDI number of 0 and will not make a sound.
Finale Screen Shot 2021-05-13 at 8.20.07 PM.png
Finale Screen Shot 2021-05-13 at 8.20.07 PM.png (20.5 KiB) Viewed 4713 times

rpoepa
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Post by rpoepa » Fri May 14, 2021 12:40 am

But another thing I tried was to go back to the original Percussion layout, which has dozens of instruments listed including a Woodblock.

If I pick that, I can use the up and down arrows to scroll through all those instruments and I see the woodblock.
(Edit: What I mean by that is that I can add a note to my score, and by scrolling up and down through the instruments on the Percussion line, I can see that High Woodblock and Low Woodblock are available. So I can add them to my score.)

But again, it makes no sound. In the instrument list, the "MIDI Note" number just shows as 0.
Finale Screen Shot 2021-05-13 at 9.08.11 PM.png
I know there's a woodblock in there somewhere though. Because I can go to Change Instrument and find it under Percussion->Wood Blocks, and if I do that, I hear the sound.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri May 14, 2021 4:09 am

I used layer 2 for the woodblock in my file. Does it sound for you?

Zuill
Attachments
Orchestral Percussion with Wood Block.musx
(102.19 KiB) Downloaded 78 times
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rpoepa
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Post by rpoepa » Fri May 14, 2021 3:03 pm

Oh, by "layers" you just meant the layers you can use to enter notes in the score. I use that a lot, but it has no effect on percussion.

I thought you were describing a feature of MIDI, that perhaps there was something called a MIDI layer where you could add one layout to another layout.

The answer to the question is no. I do not hear a woodblock. In measures 1-3 and measure 6 I hear nothing at all. In measures 4 and 5 I hear a piano.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri May 14, 2021 3:31 pm

I applied a different Map to Layer 2, but only one Layout is used. The file plays perfectly for me. The Layer 2 notes are 2 different Woodblock pitches.

If my file doesn't play correctly for you, I'm guessing you have attempted to modify your Maps, and they are no longer the default ones. Thus, you may have deleted sounds that should have been there. My approach, if maps ever need to be customized, is to create new ones. Modifying the existing ones can cause you to not be able to play files that others have created that use those default Maps. I'm guessing that is why my file won't play properly for you. The 2 Maps I used were Basic Orchestral Percussion and The Brush Kit.

Zuill

P.S.: I've attached a zip file of the mp3 generated from my system (wav file then changed to mp3). This is the sound I get.
Attachments
Orchestral Percussion with Wood Block.zip
(201.17 KiB) Downloaded 76 times
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rpoepa
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Post by rpoepa » Fri May 14, 2021 6:15 pm

To the best of my knowledge I have not modified any existing maps. I copied Orchestra Percussion to make my own map, and I have certainly never even opened Brush Kit.

Just to be safe, is there a way to restore the default layouts?

I know I didn't delete the woodblock sound, since I told you if I change instruments I can still use it. It's in there somewhere. I just have lost it from the Orchestra Percussion. Looking at my screen shots, is there a way for me to get it back?

Final question, you tell me you're using two different maps at the same time. How do you do that?

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri May 14, 2021 6:29 pm

In the attached picture, you'll see that Layer 1 and Layer 2 are set to different Percussion Maps.

If my file doesn't play back for you, then there has to be something going on in your setup that is different than mine.

Zuill
Attachments
Orchestral Percussion with Wood Block Score Manager.JPG
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rpoepa
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Post by rpoepa » Fri May 14, 2021 6:46 pm

Yes that's clear. But what can I do about it? I feel like we're going around in circles. You're telling me my setup is broken, I'm agreeing with you. Now what? Do I give up? Is Finale now broken for me permanently?

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri May 14, 2021 6:50 pm

My Layout includes sounds form the Basic Orchestral percussion and Brush Drum Kit. When you open my file, does the Score Manager look like my picture? let's start with that.

Zuill
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri May 14, 2021 7:12 pm

Regarding reinstating the Map configuration file, I can only say for Windows. Somebody using a Mac will have to help with that.

If Windows and Mac are anything alike, when you install Finale, the 4 XML files needed for the MIDI maps are located in 2 places. In the Program Data folder on Windows, the 4 files are stored there when Finale was installed. They remain untouched. In the Application Data folder, the 4 files are also located, but are the ones used by Finale. So, those can get changed, but not the ones in the Program Data folder. If you want to restore back to the state at installation, then i believe you can copy the default ones over to the user ones. if you only changed the Garritan maps, that's the only one that needs to be restored. I would back your modified one up somewhere in case you decide you wanted your edits after all, after testing the restored default file.

Mac may have a different way, so don't try to make changes until a Mac user can give the Mac procedure.

Zuill
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rpoepa
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Post by rpoepa » Fri May 14, 2021 9:18 pm

Yes. I didn't know you could expand the display that way and see the layers. I see 4 layers, one of which has Brush Drum Kit and the others have Basic Orch. Perc.

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat May 15, 2021 1:19 pm

zuill wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:12 pm
… If Windows and Mac are anything alike, when you install Finale, the 4 XML files needed for the MIDI maps are located in 2 places. In the Program Data folder on Windows, the 4 files are stored there when Finale was installed. They remain untouched. In the Application Data folder, the 4 files are also located, but are the ones used by Finale. So, those can get changed, but not the ones in the Program Data folder. If you want to restore back to the state at installation, then I believe you can copy the default ones over to the user ones. If you only changed the Garritan maps, that's the only one that needs to be restored. I would back your modified one up somewhere in case you decide you wanted your edits after all, after testing the restored default file …
The corresponding Mac installation:

When you install Finale, the 4 XML files needed for the Percussion MIDI Maps (and all other folders for the Finale program) are located in 2 places.

a) One folder hierarchy resides in the System’s Library folder at root level.

b) The other folder hierarchy resides in the (hidden) Library folder in your user account.

Important:

The folder hierarchy a) - in the root level Library folder - remains untouched.
You can see this folder hierarchy as a backup copy - in case something goes wrong (e. g. if you accidentally deleted a file, you should not have deleted).
The 4 XML files in a) are a backup copy of the default XML files (= the state at installation).

The folder hierarchy b) - in your user account’s (hidden) Library folder - is the folder hierarchy used by Finale.
This is where you should look for the 4 XML files.

The path for a) is
Library/Application Support/MakeMusic/Finale 26/…

The path for b) is
~/Library/Application Support/MakeMusic/Finale 26/…
where ~ is the user account folder.
You may not see your user account’s Library folder because the Library folder is hidden.
Fortunately there is a trick to get there:
Use the Finder’s Go menu.
When you hold down the Option key, the (user account’s) Library folder appears as an additional menu item in the Go menu.

Full path to the MIDI Device Annotation folder with the 4 XML files:
~/Library/Application Support/MakeMusic/Finale 26/MIDI Device Annotation
(Hold down Option, and use Finder’s Go menu to get to the Library folder)

However, in this thread it sounds like you can do with the default Percussion MIDI Maps (= no need to go to the folder MIDI Device Annotation).

You may never need to do so, but if you (ever) need to create your own Percussion MIDI Map, you can duplicate an existing XML file, (re-)name the duplicate as you like, and use Finale to customize the duplicate copy.
By doing so you are not affecting the default Percussion MIDI Maps.
Editing/customizing an existing XML file may be faster than creating a new XML file from scratch.


Additional note:
There are Percussion MIDI Maps, and there are Percussion Layouts.

As you now know, the Percussion MIDI Maps are stored in a special folder where they are available to all your Finale documents.
Percussion MIDI Maps are not saved inside Finale documents.
If you need to email a Finale document that uses a special, customized Percussion MIDI Map, then you must send, not only the Finale document itself, but also the custom XML file.

On The Other Hand, Percussion Layouts are document specific.
Percussion layouts are saved inside the Finale document, and different Finale documents can have different Percussion Layouts.
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

rpoepa
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Post by rpoepa » Sat May 15, 2021 4:20 pm

Thank you for the detailed response. I'm actually most comfortable doing this kind of thing from the Terminal window as I am a long time Unix user.

I found that "Percussion Layouts.lib" and "Garritan Instruments for Finale.xml" had newer dates than the other files and so I restored the original versions of both. I renamed my versions of these files myPercussion.lib and myGarritan.xml respectively.

I then reloaded Finale.

Nothing has changed. The test file that zuill sent me still does not play correctly. No sound on measures 1-3 or 6, piano in measures 4-5. And in my own score, most of the instruments in the Basic Orchestra Percussion are silent.

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat May 15, 2021 4:52 pm

rpoepa wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 4:20 pm
… The test file that zuill sent me still does not play correctly. No sound on measures 1-3 or 6, piano in measures 4-5. And in my own score, most of the instruments in the Basic Orchestra Percussion are silent.
Try this fix:

Open the Finale .musx document zuill attached.

MIDI/Audio menu > Reassign Playback Sounds (Click Yes)

Window menu > ScoreManager > Instrument List
You will see that Layer 2 has been changed to Basic Orch. Perc - but do not worry.
Change Layer 2 back to Brush Drum Kit.

Now, click the Playback button.
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rpoepa
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Post by rpoepa » Sat May 15, 2021 5:02 pm

Yes!

I'm not sure what that "Reassign Playback Sounds" does, but it did the trick.

What is the right way to do the simple things I wanted to do?

- Delete instruments I don't need from a percussion layout. Did my trying to delete them somehow remove them everywhere?
- Add instruments from other layouts. I guess that using layers is the way to do this one.

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat May 15, 2021 6:18 pm

rpoepa wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 5:02 pm
… I'm not sure what that "Reassign Playback Sounds" does …
When ever you are in doubt about such things, use the online manual’s search function.

In the Search Field you could e. g. enter “MIDI/Audio menu” (without the quotes).


rpoepa wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 5:02 pm
… What is the right way to do the simple things I wanted to do?

- Delete instruments I don't need from a percussion layout.
Did my trying to delete them somehow remove them everywhere? …
To play it safe:
Instead of editing an existing Percussion Layout you could duplicate an existing Percussion Layout, and then re-name and edit the duplicate Percussion Layout.
In that way the original Percussion layout (which you duplicated) will remain unharmed.

Removing an instrument from a Percussion Layout will not affect other Percussion Layouts.
The other Percussion Layouts will still have all their instruments.

Also, removing an instrument from a Percussion Layout will not affect any Percussion MIDI Maps.


rpoepa wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 5:02 pm
… - Add instruments from other layouts. I guess that using layers is the way to do this one.
My guess is that you are confusing Percussion Layouts and Percussion MIDI Maps.

In this case it was a matter of adding instruments from another Percussion MIDI Map (Brush Drum Kit).
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rpoepa
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Post by rpoepa » Sat May 15, 2021 7:20 pm

Instead of editing an existing Percussion Layout you could duplicate an existing Percussion Layout, and then re-name and edit the duplicate Percussion Layout. In that way the original Percussion layout (which you duplicated) will remain unharmed.
So far as I know, that's what I did. I made no changes to the original layout. Yet something I did caused this screwup.
Removing an instrument from a Percussion Layout will not affect other Percussion Layouts. The other Percussion Layouts will still have all their instruments.
Indeed it did have all its instruments. I can use them. But they did not make playback sounds any more. I still don't understand where that change was made.

Update: I have now figured out that I did make my own Percussion Layout, leaving the original untouched. And from my own Percussion Layout, I edited the MIDI map. Which I now understand is the global MIDI map.
Also, removing an instrument from a Percussion Layout will not affect any Percussion MIDI Maps.
Maybe this is what I edited instead, though I have no idea how that happened.
When ever you are in doubt about such things, use the online manual’s search function.
I can't begin to count how many times I have read the percussion articles in the manual and come away unenlightened. So I'm very grateful to this forum and people's willingness to answer questions that the manual does not explain.

I'd estimate I'd read the entire Percussion page about 20 times at this point. I'm not a stupid person, but I feel like an idiot trying to understand how all of these options work and interact.
My guess is that you are confusing Percussion Layouts and Percussion MIDI Maps.
It may be. I am still unsure about a lot of things having to do with percussion playback.

------------
I have rewritten the last part of this posting several times because I'm slowly starting to figure a couple of things out about MIDI Maps and Layouts and my points of confusion keep changing. Here's where I am now:

I just figured out that when I click on Zuill's Layer 1 and then edit the Basic Orchestra Percussion Layout, it shows me "Current MIDI Map: Basic Orchestral Percussion". When I click on Layer 2 and edit the EXACT SAME LAYOUT, it shows me "Current MIDI Map: Brush Drum Kit".

This was one of the many things confusing me. To see the Brush Drum MIDI map attached to Layer 2, I have to edit the Basic Percussion Layout. I don't need the Brush Drum layout to see the Brush Drum kit.

What is also confusing me is how I would know that "Brush Drum Kit" is what I needed to get the MIDI sound for woodblock. I would like something called "Slapstick" now. How do I know which MIDI Map I can assign so I can get it?

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat May 15, 2021 7:32 pm

Hopefully you have now found what the manual tells about the menu item
Reassign Playback Sounds.


rpoepa wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 7:20 pm
… I would like something called "Slapstick" now. How do I know which MIDI Map I can assign so I can get it?
I just used the on-line manual’s Search function.
I entered Slapstick in the Search Field, and the manual showed me that Slapstick is in Brush Drum Kit, at MIDI Note Number 28.
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miker
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Post by miker » Sat May 15, 2021 7:35 pm

I’m jumping in here, to give rproepa sincere props for sticking with it this far, and to Zuill and Peter for their detailed explanations.

Personally, I gave up on percussion long ago. Fortunately, I very rarely need it.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sat May 15, 2021 8:11 pm

rpoepa wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 7:20 pm
What is also confusing me is how I would know that "Brush Drum Kit" is what I needed to get the MIDI sound for woodblock. I would like something called "Slapstick" now. How do I know which MIDI Map I can assign so I can get it?
Brush Drum Kit does have the Slapstick as well.

Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Sat May 15, 2021 10:51 pm

Follow-up on Woodblocks. There is a separate Map in the GIfF Maps called Woodblocks. The High is MIDI 62 and the Low is MIDI 63. The only problem with those is that the High woodblock is the Low sound, and the Low woodblock is the High sound. Go figure. That's why I prefer the woodblocks in the Brush Drum Kit.

Also, to answer the question as to how I know what Map has what sounds, it's all listed in the Finale Documentation. Another way to find out is by looking at the maps in "Edit Percussion MIDI Maps".

Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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