Tuning indication at the top of the score

[Inflames626]

Hello everyone,

Is there a way in Finale that I can indicate tuning for guitar at the top of the score similar to a format used in the Cherry Lane books (tuning block with circled numbers)? I would also like the standard notation written in standard E even though the guitar is detuned a step or two so that the reader won't have to rethink fret positions (for DGCFAD, CFBbEbGC, etc). I would like this to play back at the detuned pitch, however, so that anyone trying to learn our music hears it correctly.

Thanks.

[Peter Thomsen]

1. I'm afraid I haven't seen the "format used in the Cherry Lane books (tuning block with circled numbers)".
So I have no idea, what it looks like.
Could you provide more specific information about the tuning indication?


2. If I understand you correctly, you are talking about detuning all the 6 strings with the same interval (e. g. 2 halfsteps down), having the playback sounding at the detuned pitch, but keeping the layout at the Standard written pitch.
You can treat the guitar as a transposing instrument (e. g. a French Horn in Bb):

Staff Tool.
Double-click the staff. The dialog box Staff Attributes appears.

Next to the option "Transposition", click the button "Select...". The dialog box Staff Transpositions appears.

The radio button "Key Signature" should be selected by default. I suppose that you want a key signature displayed (e. g. 4 sharps for E major)?
Next to the radio button "Key Signature", use the pop up menu to choose a transposition.

With the tuning DGCFAD (2 halfsteps down) the guitar actually is a Bb instrument, so the choice should be the ready made menu item "(Bb) Up M2, Add 2 Sharps".
Finale automatically sets the correct transposition:
In the text field "Interval" the note display is moved up 1 scale step.
In the text field "Key Alter" the key signature display is changed 2 fifths in the "sharp direction" (= +2).

Tuning the guitar down 3 halfsteps makes an A instrument, like French Horn in A.
Choose "(A) Up m3, Add 3 Flats".
Finale automatically sets the correct transposition:
In the text field "Interval" the note display is moved up 2 scale steps.
In the text field "Key Alter" the key signature display is changed 3 fifths in the "flat direction" (= -3).

With the tuning CFBbEbGC (4 halfsteps down) the guitar actually is an Ab instrument.
French Horn in Ab is a rare transposition, so there isn't a ready made menu item for (Ab). Choose "Other", and set the transposition manually:
In the text field "Interval" the note display should move up 2 scale steps.
In the text field "Key Alter" the key signature display should change 4 fifths in the "sharp direction".

Tuning the guitar down 1 halfstep leaves two possibilities:
D#G#C#F#A#D# and EbAbDbGbBbEb.

D#G#C#F#A#D# makes a B instrument:
In the text field "Interval" the note display should move up 1 scale steps.
In the text field "Key Alter" the key signature display should change 5 fifths in the "flat direction" (= -5).

EbAbDbGbBbEb makes a Cb instrument:
In the text field "Interval" the note display should move 0 scale steps.
In the text field "Key Alter" the key signature display should change 7 fifths in the "sharp direction" (= +7).

Do you get it?


Peter


PS
Detuning only 1 string (irregular tuning) is a different Finale problem.
If you need the solution for irregular tuning, let me know.

[Inflames626]

Peter:
Thank you for your help. One can always count on helpful Danes Let me see if I can get this straight.

Normally in rock guitar books, when everything is tuned down at the same interval but the notes are just sounded lower, everything is written as if it is in standard but a note is usually placed above the upper left part of the first staff saying "all notes sound 2 steps lower than written" for example.

The tuning block I am talking about looks a little something like this. I can't circle the numbers but it's fairly common in the tab books I've seen and it looks much better this way than if I just did it with the text tool. It is usually right below the chord diagrams if those are at the top of the piece and just above the treble clef on the first line.

Tune down two steps
1=C 4=A#
2=G 5=G
3=D# 6=C

As I'm a guitarist and not a composer, I'm afraid I don't know what you mean when referring to French horn etc in Ab. I know that many non-transpositional instruments are written in concert pitch, and for my keyboard parts I actually would write the piano chords in the actual sounded pitch (in this case E5 becomes C5, etc.)

Most guitar metal is in E minor or A minor, so I'd probably just have one sharp if any.

As far as Bb being DGCFAD I'm not quite sure what you mean. I know guitar is transposed up an octave to cut down on ledger lines, but other than that you're above my head on this one. Are you saying that in order for Finale to understand detuning the guitar I have to first set the guitar like a French horn in Bb and then go from there? I suppose that's because French horn is the closest transpositonal instrument in the program to guitar?

It sounds like it would be difficult to set the program up for low tunings (example, BEADGB or ADGCFA) or tunings that are low but change the interval (drop B: BF#BEAD) This is something that might go with a baritone guitar maybe in bass clef but I've seen it done with six strings and written for treble.

Whenever I write charts for guitar that have the same interval I usually just write it in E so players used to standard won't have to rethink finger placement.

The program is nice and I like all the options but the learning curve seems steep for doing just very simple things. Unfortunately I don't like other programs that are more guitar-based because they seem to leave out a lot of features for simplicity's sake.

Thank you for your post

[Peter Thomsen]

...The tuning block I am talking about looks a little something like this. I can't circle the numbers but it's fairly common in the tab books I've seen and it looks much better this way than if I just did it with the text tool. It is usually right below the chord diagrams if those are at the top of the piece and just above the treble clef on the first line.

Tune down two steps
1=C 4=A#
2=G 5=G
3=D# 6=C

If I understand you correctly, the problem is how to get circles around the six string numbers?
How about using the Text Tool?
There are several fonts that have circled numbers, e. g. the Wingdings fonts and Zapf Dingbats.
If you download and install the Sibelius demo, you get the font Opus Special, which also has circled numbers.

...As I'm a guitarist and not a composer, I'm afraid I don't know what you mean when referring to French horn etc in Ab. I know that many non-transpositional instruments are written in concert pitch, and for my keyboard parts I actually would write the piano chords in the actual sounded pitch (in this case E5 becomes C5, etc.)

Most guitar metal is in E minor or A minor, so I'd probably just have one sharp if any.

As far as Bb being DGCFAD I'm not quite sure what you mean. I know guitar is transposed up an octave to cut down on ledger lines, but other than that you're above my head on this one. Are you saying that in order for Finale to understand detuning the guitar I have to first set the guitar like a French horn in Bb and then go from there? I suppose that's because French horn is the closest transpositonal instrument in the program to guitar?...

It's common to describe instrument transpositions by the sound of a written C.
Thus, an instrument that is written in Concert Pitch, is called an instrument in C (written C sounds as C).

An instrument that transposes 2 halfsteps down, is called an instrument in Bb, since written C sounds as Bb.
Therefore the tuning DGCFAD makes the guitar a Bb instrument, since a written C sounds as Bb.

You can forget about the French Horn. It was just an example, and I could just as well have mentioned another instrument, e. g. a Clarinet.

And, yes. To make Finale establish the DGCFAD tuning's relation between layout and playback, set up the staff with Bb transposition.

What can be confusing, is that the Key Signature Tool displays the sounding key, rather than the written key.
An example:
Suppose that you set up the staff with Bb transposition, and you want the staff to display 1 sharp.
Then, in the Key Signature Tool, you should choose 1 flat, and when you return to the score, the staff will display 1 sharp.
Similarly, if you in the Key Signature Tool choose 2 flats, the staff will display zero sharps/flats.

Note, By The Way, That the Options menu has the menu item "Display in Concert Pitch", making the score display the transposed playback pitches instead of the written pitches.
You can use this menu item to view the sounding playback pitches - but don't forget to toggle off "Display in Concert Pitch" again, before you continue with your work!

...It sounds like it would be difficult to set the program up for low tunings (example, BEADGB or ADGCFA) or tunings that are low but change the interval (drop B: BF#BEAD) This is something that might go with a baritone guitar maybe in bass clef but I've seen it done with six strings and written for treble.

Whenever I write charts for guitar that have the same interval I usually just write it in E so players used to standard won't have to rethink finger placement...

Setting up the staff for a low tuning (BEADF#B or ADGCEA) is not any difficulter, since all the strings are tuned down at the same interval.
For the tuning (BEADF#B) choose "(G) Up P4, Add 1 Flat".
For the tuning (ADGCEA) choose "(F) Up P5, Add 1 Sharp".



Tunings that change the interval structure make for a different problem.
Let's take an example:
How about DADGBE (tuning the first string down to D, leaving the other strings at standard tuning)?
Is DADGBE tuning a good example (= frequently used)?
It means that notes for the first string should sound 2 halfsteps down, whereas notes for the other 5 strings should sound as written.

Peter

PS
I won't be home tomorrow, please be patient.

[Inflames626]

Peter:
It's not really something that can be typed with the text tool. It is kind of like a Coda sign or a segno. It's placed as a block and normally as quite a small font. I'm really just annoyed that the program won't insert the tuning block in by itself as it would look much better that way than if I did it.


I understand a DGCFAD guitar being a Bb instrument because instead of using E as a reference point C is used. However will this affect how notes are placed on the staff? I would much rather use E in A440 tuning as a reference pitch than C, with the low E on the guitar being 3 ledger lines below like normal.

I'm not sure what you mean about one flat showing one sharp. It seems that transposing everything down into Bb will interfere with displaying everything in as E. The problem is I would like the key signature to sound like a guitar two steps down (in this case in the key of C minor) but look like E minor (one sharp). Add on top of this the Ab transposition from concert pitch C in order to make Finale recognize the transposition and things begin to get confusing very quickly.

I think I understand what you mean about display in concert pitch though. You are saying if I want to see the notes as they sound in reality (2 steps down) turn on concern pitch, but if I want to see them how I'd like them to be written (like a standard tuned guitar) turn on the transposition again, yes?

At the bottom part, I also think you mean this:

I have a guitar in standard and I want to make it look like BEADF#B
Instead of thinking of the reference point as E I think of it as C.
E to B is a P4, and a P4 down from C is G. Therefore I use the key signature of G. But because there is an F# in the tuning I add a flat or a sharp.

My problem here is separating out the written pitch from the sounding pitch and also keeping that straight from Finale seeing everything in concert pitch.

I think I have most of what you mean and I thank you very much.

[Peter Thomsen]

...I understand a DGCFAD guitar being a Bb instrument because instead of using E as a reference point C is used. However will this affect how notes are placed on the staff? I would much rather use E in A440 tuning as a reference pitch than C, with the low E on the guitar being 3 ledger lines below like normal...

In this context 'Bb' only means that the instrument sounds 2 halfsteps below written pitch. Nothing else!
Describing the transposition by the sound of written C is an old tradition.
But you could just as well describe the transposition by the sound of written E (2 halfsteps down from E = D), or any other written scale step.
It's just tradition to describe the sound of written C, and it's therefore that the pop up menu in Finale's dialog box Staff Transpositions describes "2 halfsteps down" as (Bb).

...I'm not sure what you mean about one flat showing one sharp. It seems that transposing everything down into Bb will interfere with displaying everything in as E. The problem is I would like the key signature to sound like a guitar two steps down (in this case in the key of C minor) but look like E minor (one sharp). Add on top of this the Ab transposition from concert pitch C in order to make Finale recognize the transposition and things begin to get confusing very quickly...

It sound like you are talking about two different transpositions at the same time.

Bb transposition transposes down 2 halfsteps.
This means that written key signature of E minor (= 1 sharp) will sound as D minor (= 1 flat).

Ab transposition transposes down 4 halfsteps.
This means that written key signature of E minor (= 1 sharp) will sound as C minor (= 3 flats).

...I think I understand what you mean about display in concert pitch though. You are saying if I want to see the notes as they sound in reality (2 steps down) turn on concern pitch, but if I want to see them how I'd like them to be written (like a standard tuned guitar) turn on the transposition again, yes?...

Yes.

...At the bottom part, I also think you mean this:

I have a guitar in standard and I want to make it look like BEADF#B
Instead of thinking of the reference point as E I think of it as C.
E to B is a P4, and a P4 down from C is G. Therefore I use the key signature of G. But because there is an F# in the tuning I add a flat or a sharp...

Yes, except for the last two sentences:

1. You say: "Therefore I use the key signature of G."
It's not the key signature of G (the music can be in any key), but rather the transposition of G - namely the menu item "(G) Up P4, Add 1 Flat".

2. You say: "But because there is an F# in the tuning I add a flat or a sharp."
It's true that there is an F# in the tuning BEADF#B, but that doesn't matter.
And you don't have to worry about, manually adding flats or sharps in the key signature.
Finale handles the accidental addition/removing automatically.
An example:
If you use the Key Signature Tool to set the sounding key to B minor (2 sharps), Finale will automatically make the staff display as E minor (1 sharp).


Peter