Can't change Time Signature, plus apparent ghost staff

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Perotinus
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Post by Perotinus » Mon Jun 17, 2024 1:58 pm

Hello, all,
For some reason, I cannot seem to change the time signature so it holds for any of the measures in this document. I copied the content here from a rather old document into a new Finale27 template. I initially wanted to change measures 27 and 34 to a 1/8 time sig, but this will not stick after following the usual steps. Experimenting further, it seems that no measure will accept a TS change. Some contributing factors could be that these measures were initially conceived as split measures. In making the F27 file I tried to re-enter the material for these measures separately. I have also tried to insert new measures around them and change the time sig, but that also doesn't work.
Lastly, File Maintenance indicates that there are two staves here, when there should be one -- a wrinkle I remember encountering quite a ways back with older files. I cannot, though, seem to find a way to view or delete this additional staff.

Any help most welcome. Link to file in Dropbox below.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/z16baim8 ... hrqbv&dl=0
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bakkumd
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Post by bakkumd » Mon Jun 17, 2024 2:25 pm

Your "01. Conductus" staff style indicates that time signatures are hidden. Edit your staff style - check the time signature boxes for score and parts (if you want both) in the lower right of the dialog and you should now see time signatures
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Jun 17, 2024 2:43 pm

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to do but you might want to explore JW Change on a new document to see if it will do what you want. It has the ability to change a lot of stuff like hiding stems. You can hide barlines in the Measure tool, too, eliminating the need for a Staff Style. Just a thought.
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Perotinus
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Post by Perotinus » Mon Jun 17, 2024 3:21 pm

I thank you both kindly for your responses. It seems I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be. Since this is a Gregorian chant-like transcription, I don't need or want the time signatures to show, and the piece looks just fine visually in terms of what I want.

What I do want to do is to change the time signature of a few existing internal measures to something other than 6/8 and adjust the musical content of those measures.

That's the kind of thing I haven't been able to do. If I try to change the TS, it goes through the expected motions, but then when I select the measure again with the TS tool. it shows no such change.

See if you are able to, say, change the TS of a single measure from 6/8 to 3/4 (so as not to mess up too much). Does it work? I haven't been successful with that in this doc.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Jun 17, 2024 3:38 pm

Try clearing your Staff Style and use JW Change to hide stems. The change form 6/8 to 3/4 sticks that way if it will do the rest of what you want. You can hide barlines in the Measure tool
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Jun 17, 2024 3:53 pm

A simple experiment reveals that the staff style is not the culprit.
Last edited by motet on Mon Jun 17, 2024 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Mon Jun 17, 2024 4:17 pm

Perotinus wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2024 1:58 pm
I copied the content here from a rather old document into a new Finale27 template./quote]

This might be part of the problem. The new file uses the new SMuFl font (Finale Maestro) and the old file would have used just plain Maestro. If you have an earlier version of Finale, say 25 or 26, make the template in one of those. When you open it in 27, the font will be Maestro.
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:08 pm

What happens if you simply open the rather old document instead of copying it?

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Perotinus
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Post by Perotinus » Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:42 pm

Thanks for all the suggestions, I really appreciate your taking the time.
as motet indicated, staff style doesn't seem to be causing it. I cleared the style in the document in question and still couldn't get the time signature to change.

Weirder still, when I opened up the original original document in F27 (it goes back at least to 2009, perhaps '06), and went to measures 27 and 34, the 1/8 time signature I wanted to change to these measures to in the updated document was there, but they both played back as a dotted half note(??!!!). I am able in this original document to change time sigs as usual, but I have no clue why the 1/8 measures with one eighth note in each of them play back with the value of a dotted half. I was able to attach the relevant sections of this older file here. The problematic measures (27 and 34) are at the start of the systems in Page View that have notes throughout.

So I guess the 3 main things I am concerned about are:
1. why the playback is so weird in those measures (27 and 34) in both these versions,
2. why I still can't change the time signature anywhere in the new imported version,
3. and why both of these versions indicate they have 2 staves when this is a monophonic piece.

I don't have earlier versions of Finale installed any more, so I am not sure if this playback problem goes back that far as well.
So, a mystery. I hope one of the many gurus here can suss it out. I am now stumped.
With gratitude
Attachments
Test-time signature-old-document.musx
(111.13 KiB) Downloaded 24 times
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:57 am

I think the weirdness may have to do with the fact that the staff has independent key signature and independent time signature checked, which doesn't make a lot of sense with only one staff. If I uncheck those in your old and new file, then the time signature tool works. The 1/8 bar becomes a 6/8 bar, which explains why it was playing back slowly. If I add a new staff I see that the whole thing is really in 6/8. I don't know why you can't find the phantom staff.

You might see if it's practical to uncheck independent key signature and independent time signature. I notice the pitches change, so you might have to transpose them.

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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:58 am

I have Finale 2011, if you want to attach your original .mus file here.

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:15 pm

A simple experiment reveals that the staff style is not the culprit.
My suggestion was not meant to condemn staff styles as it was to offer a solution that works and is extremely easy to do.
Last edited by ebiggs1 on Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Jun 18, 2024 4:28 pm

It doesn't appear to help with the problem the O.P. is having.

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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Wed Jun 19, 2024 12:10 am

Yes it does at least it works as supposed to here on my end.
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Perotinus
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Post by Perotinus » Wed Jun 19, 2024 2:08 pm

Motet,
Thanks so much. That makes good sense about the independent elements. I'll give it a shot. The reason it had independent signatures was because it came from a template with four staves for early music. Not uncommonly, early pieces sometimes require independent elements. Your time is much appreciated.
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Perotinus
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Post by Perotinus » Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:49 pm

Yep, motet, you saved the day! Thanks so much!
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Post by motet » Wed Jun 19, 2024 6:21 pm

Good! My offer stands to open your original in Finale 2011 and see if the other staff appears and can be delete.

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