dead horse

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motet
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Re: dead horse

Post by motet » Sun Sep 12, 2021 8:05 pm

Agreed. The screen size is not its only problem. It's a great thing, though. I suspect the other products don't have such.

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PeterF
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Re: dead horse

Post by PeterF » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:18 am

Hey Finale gang. Wow, just stopping by in the midst of a hurricane of notational malaise. I only bought the most recent Finale 27, after many years of absence cause I needed to score some new MIDI recordings (on a synth) and I hoped it would work. Finale is great for the way you can edit MIDI. Sibelius *** on that front. Though, that has nothing to do with scoring and printing scores. I’ve used Sibelius for making nice ukulele and piano/vocal scores the past many years but that program has the WORST EVER note input. So, I input all my notes in Finale first and then import in Sibby for the final scores. I have no idea about Dorico. I’ve seen their blog and I know a few are former Sibelius employees.

I agree with Motet. I have no nostalgia for handwritten music. I loved typewriters as an 8-year-old kid and couldn't wait to take typing in highschool. The only reason I got into computers (Atari 1040 STFM) in 1989 was due to MIDI ports and the score software EZ-SCORE. Haha

I’m very sorry to hear about the impending end of Finale. The notation market ain’t that big.

Sibelius has a nice webscore feature that I can even embed in my WordPress site, but the entire Sibelius Ultimate software is now a subscription basis as other Avid products. $$$

Strange times,

Petey
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David Ward
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Re: dead horse

Post by David Ward » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:43 am

PeterF wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:18 am
… … …I’m very sorry to hear about the impending end of Finale… … …
I suspect this particular death notice may be a trifle premature, although nothing is immortal.
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BuonTempi
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Re: dead horse

Post by BuonTempi » Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:45 am

People have been posting about the impending death of Finale since 2007, at least. I suspect it will continue until some future technical obstacle becomes too great for its ancient code to surmount. If not Apple Silicon, then perhaps the next tide. Windows is apparently due to draw legacy lines in the sand at some point.

It is also likely that some fundamental limitations of its data structures mean that it will never implement things like 'real' beam/tuplets over barlines; nor multi-movement documents or other things that the competition offers.

But, yes: the subject, if not Finale itself, is a dead horse. We know what it can do; and we know all the things that it doesn't do that the others do. The most compelling reason to use Finale is: 30 years' worth of files and familiarity.

The generation raised on touch-screen phones and web interfaces are not going to understand six layers of nested dialogs!

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Re: dead horse

Post by Jetcopy » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:43 pm

No matter how problematic Finale is, there's no comparison to writing by hand. I started out as a hand copyist in 1972. I had a copying job for a well known female vocalist and her new album, this was around 1982.

I got the scores and started copying, full orchestra and rhythm section. I got a call a few days later, the singer wanted 2 of the charts also written in another key. She would decide at the session which key felt better for her. To say I panicked was an understatement. But I got it done and the session went well.

I would have loved to have had the option to use Finale for that job. So anytime I feel like complaining about FInale, I think back to the old days and remember what it used to be like.

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Re: dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:53 pm

On the bright side all of us long time Finale users know what it can do. There is still no doubt it produces the best scores on the market. But all of you need to sit a couple days with a real Sibelius users and watch the difference. I mean not just some guy that tries Sib or an average user but a person that really knows it.

Somebody told me, as a for instance, if you don't like the mixer use the Aria player. And perhaps MM thinks the same way. If there is another way, why bother fixing it. But in this case I suspect the mixer is closely related to the studio screen, too. Another joke! So, don't use it either?

It seems as long as there is a way, whether it is additional software or plug-ins, we are golden. Perhaps this clouds the minds at MM into thinking all is well. Thank heaven for plug-ins!
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Michel R E
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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:57 pm

I've been testing out Dorico (yes, it works fine with Windows 8.1, 64 bit).

It is, obviously, a different product, and it's a learning curve.

But I find some things, while maybe well-intentioned in their design end up being more complicated of use than they should be.

For example, I have a piece for string orchestra.

As far as notation goes, I always use a number for 1st and 2nd violin, and the actual word "violin" centered between the two staves.
If there is any further divisi, then a secondary square bracket encompasses the divided 1st or 2nd (or both) violin (or violas, or celli, etc...)

I haven't found a way of placing the instrument name between the two violin staves. It seems to me that this would be a very simple and basic concept, since the string section is the backbone of any orchestral part.

But no, Dorico insists on creating a "violin 1" staff, and a "violin 2" staff. It's quite unattractive, and frankly amateurish-looking.

maybe someone here can correct my first impression of Dorico by indicating something I may have missed?
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Michel R E
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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:05 pm

OH! I will give this to Dorico: creating underlines, superscripts, etc... is VERY easy when I change the formatting of staff names to the French versions I normally use.
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Re: dead horse

Post by BuonTempi » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:43 pm

Dorico has an Engraving Option for shared staff labels, if they are Solo Players, not Section Players. I presume that's deliberate, rather than an oversight. Dorico follows Gould fairly strictly: I can't find the exact rubric, but it seems to follow what she says from p. 499 onwards.
Screenshot.png

As a 'workaround' (you're used to those, right? :lol: ), you could just add 'Violons' as a text object.

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Michel R E
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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:02 pm

well, there goes the fantasy that Dorico doesn't need work-arounds for very basic functions, no?

I guess Dorico isn't QUITE the Finale-killer that some people are trying to make it out to be.
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Re: dead horse

Post by BuonTempi » Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:05 pm

The difference being that when you ask for a feature to be included, you get a swift reply, and can reasonably expect it to be implemented.

https://forums.steinberg.net/t/no-staff ... rs/739803/

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motet
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Re: dead horse

Post by motet » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:26 pm

A strength of Finale is you can hand-tweak virtually anything. Can you not manually move the staff labels in Dorico?

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Re: dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:47 pm

The difference being that when you ask for a feature to be included, you get a swift reply, ... "
This one fact would help tremendously. And, if all remembers the old bunch was very responsive. I even got to know some of their kids!
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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:48 pm

not according to any of the replies I've gotten to this specific question. all I've been told is to add a text item for the "violin" part.
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Re: dead horse

Post by John Ruggero » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:59 am

There are several such issues that prevent me from using Dorico.

But a bigger one for me is the inflexibility of the workspace as compared to Finale, since I often have multiple sources open simultaneously on two monitors as I work. Michel, do you feel comfortable with the Dorico workspace?
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Re: dead horse

Post by Ian Stewart » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:58 am

John Ruggero wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:59 am
There are several such issues that prevent me from using Dorico.
The main reason I use Dorico is because the layout looks beautiful with practically no effort on my part. With Finale the extracted parts look a mess and need a lot of work to get them to look good. However I really like Finale and if Dorico did not exist I would have carried on using finale with few complaints.
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Michel R E
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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:13 pm

First off: news about my particular issue. There's a work-around, but it feels clunky to me, and is problematic for parts.

However, apparently this functionality WILL be added in the upcoming "version 4" of Dorico.


*************************

John, to answer your question: it's all new to me, so I knew from the get-go that the program was very different.
I'm open to learning a completely new working environment (I presume that is what you meant by "workspace"?)

My old faculty advisor and teacher has switched to Dorico, and has offered to help with my transition, so I have a tiny advantage there.

I DID find a few of the responses on the Dorico Facebook page to be obnoxiously pretentious and snarky, but they don't represent the company itself, only some of its small-minded users.

When I work I only want to be able to input information as easily as I can, and make changes easily. Other than learning a new way of doing this, and Dorico's interface being rather heavily "keyboard shortcut" driven, I think I'll eventually be able to adapt.

There do seem to be a lot of things in Dorico that are good. Things I wish Finale could handle more readily.
And yes, there are still problems in Dorico... it's auto-spacing algorithms seem to have trouble sometimes with some types of layouts. I did notice my old faculty advisor posting and asking about a particular page in one of his scores where there is some egregious overlapping of staves.
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Re: dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:09 pm

Finale the extracted parts look a mess and need a lot of work to get them to look good.
Two words, Perfect Layout.

Try it.
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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:18 pm

I decided to try DORICO with an XML import of a score for strings.
Weirdly, the imported version has no notes starting shortly before the end of the 2nd movement all the way through to the end of the piece.
I don't know if this is an artifact of XML export from Finale, a fault in XML itself, or Dorico's fault in importing poorly.
I HAD sent an orchestral score to my advisor to import into Dorico to get an idea of the results, and that was a complete mess, and we never got an answer as to why the XML import was such a train wreck.

I tried re-importing the XML into Finale and everything came out perfect.
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Re: dead horse

Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:33 pm

I tried re-importing the XML into Finale and everything came out perfect.
I think all will agree Finale is pretty darn good. The elephant in the room is, it could be even better. It could be untouchable by its competitors. As I have always said for what I do Finale is great, as long as there are plug-ins like Perfect Layout, and JW and Patterson, etc. Plus add-ons like NotePerformer 3

BTW, Audacity is another great package to help with audio output tweaking and conversion to mp3. Plus it is free!
Last edited by ebiggs1 on Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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motet
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Re: dead horse

Post by motet » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:38 pm

Michel R E wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:13 pm
I DID find a few of the responses on the Dorico Facebook page to be obnoxiously pretentious and snarky, but they don't represent the company itself, only some of its small-minded users.
I don't think Dorico has the corner on that market! :D

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Re: dead horse

Post by Michel R E » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:27 pm

Surprisingly, Dorico does NOT do cutaway score!!!

In the string piece I'm using as my "test subject" with Dorico, there is a small section that requires cutaway staves. This isn't as yet possible with Dorico, while it's a breeze with Finale.
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Re: dead horse

Post by John Ruggero » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:10 am

Michel, by "workspace" I meant that one can't break Dorico up into one window for the score and have separate floating palettes for tools and such whose shape one can modify as needed, so that one can arrange everything conveniently on the monitors. So it felt like I was being forced to adapt to Dorico, and rather unsuccessfully, rather than it being able to adapt to my needs. This feeling continued on into things much like your discovery above concerning instrument labels. Arbitrary decisions limit the users capabilities rather than expanding them. This I found very disappointing and, as I mentioned after my second trial of the program, it felt like I was no longer "Behind Bars" (pun intended) when I got back to Finale.
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Re: dead horse

Post by BuonTempi » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:12 am

John, given that the 'tools' in the side panels are entirely dependent upon what mode each window/tab is in, having them independently floating makes no sense. You can show or hide the side panels at the touch of a key; again per-window or tab. Why do you need to modify them? (Once you've learnt the key commands, you don't need them much anyway.)

Yes, Dorico still has limitations, and they can be a brick wall. Aleatoric sections and cut-aways are perhaps the biggest lacunae. (Maybe in v4, who knows?) There are workarounds for aleatorics. But it's not even 5 years old, and each new release brings more features than Finale manages in a decade.

Finale's great strength is its flexibility. It lets you do absolutely anything. But it doesn't actually do anything for you either. I spend most of my life in Finale manually moving notes and lyrics and staves, all of which is entirely unnecessary in Dorico (And probably in Sibelius and MuseScore, too). As a result, I'm more forgiving when I do come across something that takes a bit of time and effort in Dorico.

Perfect Layout will do it all for you, but at an additional cost. It's almost like Finale is "Finale Elements", and paying for PL is the additional price for "Finale Pro". Even so, everything it does should be done natively, automatically, in real-time.

MakeMusic staff have recently said on Scoring Notes something to the effect that we all use different tools for different jobs, and Dorico may be better for some jobs, and Finale better for others.

However, I still believe that Finale runs the risk of becoming like SCORE: a quaint, archaic, esoteric piece of software, which may produce outstanding results, but is in danger of becoming of a historical tool from the past.
Last edited by BuonTempi on Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: dead horse

Post by Ian Stewart » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:38 am

I basically agree with you Buon Tempi but some aleatoric techniques are easier in Dorico; it is possible to put graphic sections in a different flow and then re-position them on the page. If Finale enabled the Shape Designer to be expanded I believe Finale would then be better for aleatoric scores.
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