Selective ottava use

[sPretzel]

Hi,
This is a general notation question. I don't know where else on the forum to put it.
Assume I have two notes on the staff (or a chord), and one of the notes is way up in pitch. To avoid all the extra ledger lines, I'd like to use the 8va sign. But how can I notate it so that it only applies to that note, not the other note (or not the entire chord)? Of course, I could write it as an indication in plain english but I would like to know if there is some kind of best practice in this case.
Thanks.

[ebiggs1]

Not any help for your question but I would use the ledger lines. I like to keep it as simple and least confusing as possible for the musician.

[N Grossingink]

Enter the whole chord an octave lower and use the 8va as usual.

[sPretzel]

Enter the whole chord an octave lower and use the 8va as usual.

I would like to avoid that and target only the one note that I would like to notate an octave lower.

Not any help for your question but I would use the ledger lines. I like to keep it as simple and least confusing as possible for the musician.

I would like to avoid that too since many ledger lines are confusing.

[N Grossingink]

There is nothing in general practice music notation that covers what you want to do. Just put a text directive above the chord with a line pointing to the affected note.

[John Ruggero]

An example would be helpful. There are situations in which context can allow the octave sign to pertain to just one note on a staff and not the others, but in most cases it is debatable whether it is worth the possible confusion.

If this is piano music and the note is so far from the rest that only it takes the octave sign, then the rest are probably being played by the left hand and thus best to be on the other staff.

[sPretzel]

There is nothing in general practice music notation that covers what you want to do. Just put a text directive above the chord with a line pointing to the affected note.

That is what I wanted to know: if there is some kind of rule. Since you say there isn't, I agree that the sensible thing to do is to put a note explaining it.

[motet]

"loco" cancels the 8va.

[sPretzel]

Hi motet. We are talking about stacked notes (as in a chord), not successive notes.

[motet]

Ah. Never seen that. If you can have separate stems, something like this, maybe. If the octave-higher note is below one of the others in the chord, though, I would notate it conventionally.

[sPretzel]

I think what N Grossingink said, to add a note explaining it somewhere, is what makes most sense, since there is no rule.
Stems in different directions would be appropriate for different voices but if that's not the case, it wouldn't be a good idea.
What you're showing though, with a little arrowhead pointing to the note, might be self-explanatory. I've had trouble drawing triangles in Shape Designer for a custom arrowhead. I can't find a way to close the shape properly.

[Peter Thomsen]

… I've had trouble drawing triangles in Shape Designer for a custom arrowhead. I can't find a way to close the shape properly …

In the Shape Designer there is a sub-tool called Polygon Tool.

I think that the Polygon Tool can do, what you need.

With the Polygon Tool selected, click the first two corners, then double-click the third (last) corner.
You can fill the triangle with Black.

I just tried it, and it works for me.

[sPretzel]

Hi Peter,
Yes, I am familiar with this tool in Shape Designer. I have been trying to create a triangle with it for a while but I'm not sure I close the shape properly. Sometimes it looks fine, most of the times, I get something pointy that doesn't look right. Where exactly should I click to make sure the shape closes back on the point it started?

The manual says this:

Polygon Tool. This tool lets you create fully-enclosed shapes composed of multiple line segments. Drag to create the first line segment, and then click to specify the next point. An additional line segment is drawn with each additional click. Double-click to close the shape (by drawing a final line back to the starting point). Describe the shape’s thickness, shading, and dashed quality using the Shape Designer menu, before creating it or when it’s selected. Using the Selection tool, click a polygon to see its bounding handles, which you can drag to resize the object; double-click a bounding handle to display its control points, which you can use to reshape the sides of the shape.

Finale has some preset arrowheads but I haven't been able to duplicate any of them in order to modify them. Is there a way to duplicate them?

[sPretzel]

I guess I found the answer. After your post, I tried again and it seems that double-clicking anywhere (not necessarily on the starting point) closes off the shape. Thanks Peter.

Update. After making a custom triangle, it doesn't appear to behave properly. When I try to add it as a custom arrowhead to a line, the line ends before its own endpoints! So there is a gap between the end of the line and the triangle if, in Shape Designer, I position the custom triangle to begin where there is a circle (when creating/editing the custom triangle). Additionally, when I fill the triangle with black, I get two slightly offset triangle arrowheads, one filled and one with just the stroke. Have you gone as far as adding your custom shape to a line as an arrowhead Peter?
In the image, you can see the custom triangle on the left. On the right, that custom triangle is added as an arrowhead to a line. There is a visible gap between the end of the line and the triangle (even though the triangle was positioned at the origin, as shown by the circle indicating the origin on the image to the left). The triangle was filled but you can see that when placed as an arrowhead (image on the right), I get two triangles for the price of one. This is in F27.1.

[N Grossingink]

There is an arrow line which looks OK provided in the Custom Smart Shape selection window. In the designer box, have you tried moving the arrowhead to the left? The arrowhead might not be necessary - a plain "pointer line" does the trick just as well.

[sPretzel]

N Grossingink. I have been trying to implement this as an articulation or an expression, not via the Smart Shape Tool. It's true that a plain line might work just as well. Did you manage to reproduce the issue with the arrowhead at all?
If I could duplicate the preset arrowhead, I would reuse it but I haven't found a way to duplicate it. The arrowhead I create has the problems I described.

[Peter Thomsen]

… When I try to add it as a custom arrowhead to a line, the line ends before its own endpoints! So there is a gap between the end of the line and the triangle if, in Shape Designer, I position the custom triangle to begin where there is a circle (when creating/editing the custom triangle). Additionally, when I fill the triangle with black, I get two slightly offset triangle arrowheads, one filled and one with just the stroke. Have you gone as far as adding your custom shape to a line as an arrowhead Peter? …

Come to think of it, I do remember that very problem.

In sted of a custom shape I used a font character - that worked.

[N Grossingink]

I used the Shape Designer to design an arrowed line using one of the preset arrowheads - it looks OK. Then made an expression version and an articulation version. I'm attaching the Finale file - if you want, you can copy and paste these into your file. Just set the filter to copy expressions and articulations only.

You can adjust the shape of the line by double clicking on the handle of the expression version and moving the endpoint handles that appear. Doing so will adjust the articulation version as well, as they are linked. If you enter the expression version using a "metatool", the link to the articulation is broken.

[sPretzel]

Peter. How did you insert the font character into Shape Designer? I can't get it to take some characters. There's a thread on a similar topic here. viewtopic.php?t=18351
But I still didn't get anywhere. I tried with the Text Tool and still no luck.

N. Grossingink. In the image I provided, I used a preset arrowhead. I don't like the preset arrowhead. That's why I'm trying to make my own (or use a text character).

[Peter Thomsen]

Peter. How did you insert the font character into Shape Designer? I can't get it to take some characters …

Indeed that can be a problem, depending on the (keystrokes for the) actual font character.

From your Forum Profile (shown to the right of your posts) I can see that you are using Windows Finale.

Unfortunately I am using the Mac version, and can not be of help with typing font characters in Windows.
Possibly you can type all the font characters if you change the keyboard layout to Hexadecimal input (which means holding down a modifier key while typing a code).

[sPretzel]

In Windows, there is something called Character Map to get hold of all the characters. That can be done through other programs as well. But I don't get those arrow characters to display in Finale when I copy and paste them in there.

[ebiggs1]

I would like to avoid that too since many ledger lines are confusing.

And, you think ledger lines are too confusing after going through all the above? Since none of that seems "standard", isn't it confusing on its surface?

[sPretzel]

ebiggs1, you're mixing up the initial notation issue with software problems encountered in Finale.

[ebiggs1]

I am sorry, I just thought it might be the better option to get the project back on track. I bow out.

[sPretzel]

In the ShapeDesigner pop-up, there is Insert Symbol under Select Font. While I could not copy/paste the character from another application into Finale, Insert Symbol allowed me to do that.