Overlap two staff with different time signature

General notation questions, including advanced notation, formatting, etc., go here.

Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker

Post Reply
Frank
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:46 pm

Post by Frank » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:59 pm

Hello, I would to overlap two staff with different time signature through Finale 2010.

For example 4/4 on 5/4... then I'll have 5 bars about 4/4 signature time on 4 bars about 5/4 signature time.

I hope I explained why I do not know English very well.

Thanks in advance


User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:30 pm

Welcome to the forum!

It is a challenge to do staggered barlines in Finale because a Finale .mus document basically is a database document where the measure is the "primary data container".

Staggered barlines in Finale can only be done with a workaround of some sort.

Here is one of the workarounds:

Use one big 20/4 measure.
Add false barlines as expressions.

You will have to look carefully at cautionary accidentals!
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Frank
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:46 pm

Post by Frank » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:49 am

Peter Thomsen wrote:
It is a challenge to do staggered barlines in Finale
I noticed
Peter Thomsen wrote: Here is one of the workarounds:

Use one big 20/4 measure.
Add false barlines as expressions.

You will have to look carefully at cautionary accidentals!
Thanks, however, confirm that so I'll have problems with the play back

Bye

Frank

Frank
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:46 pm

Post by Frank » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:03 am

Ok, we have not got any problem with play back, but how can I "Add false barlines as expressions"?

Thanks in advance

Frank
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:46 pm

Post by Frank » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:40 am


User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:15 pm

Frank wrote:…how can I "Add false barlines as expressions"?…
1) Go to Document Options - Barlines
and note the document's barline thickness.


2) To make the false barline, automatically position itself, consider creating a new expression category for the false barline.
Create a false barline as a shape expression, but de-select the option "Allow Horizontal Stretching".
In the Shape Designer, set the Line Lhickness to the thickness of a barline, and draw a vertical line from the Origo (0;0) to (0;-24 Points) - the height of a staff is 24 Points.

See the attached screen shot where the Measurement Units are set to "Points".
Attachments
CategoryDesigner.jpg
Measurement Units are Points
CategoryDesigner.jpg (70.66 KiB) Viewed 7685 times
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

User avatar
miker
Posts: 5993
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by miker » Fri Apr 27, 2012 2:12 pm

You should already have the false barlines in the Expressions>Miscellaneous group.
Attachments
Expression.png
Expression.png (85.9 KiB) Viewed 7684 times
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

Frank
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:46 pm

Post by Frank » Wed May 09, 2012 10:17 am

Thanks

Frank
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:46 pm

Post by Frank » Wed May 09, 2012 12:32 pm

I'm working on complex overlaps, 2 different staves, where the first has an indication of 7/8 and the other alternating 5/4 to 4/4

Hacks shows the change of time after each bar of expression?

Thanks

User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed May 09, 2012 1:37 pm

If I understand you correctly, the first staff is in 7/8, and the second staff has alternating time signatures of 5/4 and 4/4, and you need to display the time signature in the second staff, whereever it changes, right?

For a complex case like this the "one big measure" solution may not be the best solution, since the measure will be quite big: 63/4.

Instead I would put one (not quite so big) measure in each system, and plan the layout carefully:
How many beats in each system (= in each measure)?
Most of the systems will have to end with an invisible barline, thus indicating that the measure continues in the next system.

Add the barlines and the time signatures as expressions - or as articulations.

You can define the expression or articulations so that they automatically position themselves correctly.
You can include them in the music spacing: Document Options - Music Spacing
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Frank
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:46 pm

Post by Frank » Wed May 09, 2012 2:03 pm

Ok Peter, but the problem is to display the first 4/4 and then 5/4 at each change of time ... the rest is just math: D

Stave 1: 7/8
Stave 2: 4/4 | 5/4 | 4/4 | 5/4 | etc.

I do not know if it is clear, the rest from previous suggestions is already ok: D

User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed May 09, 2012 2:31 pm

Add the time signatures as expressions - or as articulations.

By The Way:
What version of Finale are you using? 2012? 2011? 2010? 2009?
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Frank
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:46 pm

Post by Frank » Wed May 09, 2012 3:18 pm

2010

User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed May 09, 2012 6:20 pm

Take a look at the two attached Finale 2010 documents.


The document "StaggeredBarlines2010A.mus" shows the solution you asked for:
Time signature on every 4/4 measure and every 5/4 measure.
StaggeredBarlines2010A.mus.zip
The solution you asked for
(6.12 KiB) Downloaded 197 times

However, it is my personal opinion that the many time signatures in the lower staff make the upper staff's music spacing look ugly.
The document "StaggeredBarlines2010B.mus" shows how I would do it.
StaggeredBarlines2010B.mus.zip
The solution I prefer
(5.75 KiB) Downloaded 199 times
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Frank
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:46 pm

Post by Frank » Thu May 10, 2012 2:28 pm

Thanks your valuable examples I could do almost anything. I just have a completely new problem, Finale proposes a bar by line (and 63/4 is not to say), in your case, the great musical bar is run on multiple lines. How do? What am I missing?

Thanks

User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu May 10, 2012 3:34 pm

Frank wrote:…I just have a completely new problem, Finale proposes a bar by line (and 63/4 is not to say), in your case, the great musical bar is run on multiple lines. How do? What am I missing?…
In my examples the "great measure" is not run across multiple systems.

Each system is one (not quite so great) measure of 18/4, but I have selected "Invisible" right barline in the Measure Attributes.

I hope that this is clear?
If not, ask again
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Post Reply