Tuplets over bar lines

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ninoupte7
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Post by ninoupte7 » Wed May 27, 2015 3:37 pm

Finale 2014d; WinXP.
I want to create a quarternote triplet: 1/4, 1/8, barline, 1/8, 1/4.
But am unable to do it.
The entire 2 measures: 1/8, (triplet: 1/4,1/4,1/4), (triplet: 1/4,1/8, barline,1/8,14), dottedhalf.
Ideas?


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miker
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Post by miker » Wed May 27, 2015 4:07 pm

Welcome to the forum. Combine the two meaures, with a hidden (doubled) time signature, and insert the barline as an expression.
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ninoupte7
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Post by ninoupte7 » Wed May 27, 2015 6:02 pm

Thank you very much; I'll attempt that.

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed May 27, 2015 7:18 pm

Here is another solution, with two real measures separated by a real barline.
This solution will work across a system break.

In the attached Finale 2014 document there are two variations of the solution.
The latter solution was created by using the plug-in Beam Over Barlines.
Attachments
TupletOverBarline.musx.zip
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George Holloway
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Post by George Holloway » Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:52 am

Peter,

It looks as if you are admitting that actual tuplets over barlines (without using fake barlines) are impossible in Finale? Is that still correct in the newest version?

Thanks!

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miker
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Post by miker » Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:44 pm

No changes, AFAIK.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:57 pm

George Holloway wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:52 am
Peter,

It looks as if you are admitting that actual tuplets over barlines (without using fake barlines) are impossible in Finale? Is that still correct in the newest version?

Thanks!
I am not sure I understand your words “actual tuplets over barlines (without using fake barlines) are impossible in Finale”.
Please explain.

* I suppose that you are talking about layout, not playback?

Generally it is difficult to find something that Finale can not do.

I suppose that you do know the plug-in Beam Over Barlines (which I mentioned in my post)?

The big question (at least for me) is this:
* What should the layout look like where the tuplet goes across a system break?
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wessmusic
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Post by wessmusic » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:10 am

Here is another method for creating tuplets over the barline.
It turned out that my mic. was not switched on, however everything is so simple, so that the explanations are unnecessary.
This video, I believe, covers three of the most common scenarios.

https://youtu.be/O-r6QolMCe4

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Wess
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:52 pm

That's excellent, Wess.

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wessmusic
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Post by wessmusic » Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:02 pm

Thank you, Motet.
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Anders Hedelin
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Dec 02, 2020 2:46 pm

Thank you Wess! I have used miker's method before, and I think that both methods have their merits. Yours seems indispensable with a tuplet across systems. But with a tuplet on the same system, I prefer the method used by miker and me. That requires fewer steps, I think. (Including using the beat chart to reposition the notes around the fake barline, if necessary.) I might be wrong about this of course.
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George Holloway
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Post by George Holloway » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:01 am

It makes me want to cry when I see how quickly and fluently you enter the notes. I've used Finale for 11 years and thousands of hours, all on simple entry, and it is still a painful distressing process for me. Should I learn to use speedy entry? Do I need a keyboard to use it?

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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Sat Mar 13, 2021 10:48 am

George Holloway wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:01 am
It makes me want to cry when I see how quickly and fluently you enter the notes. I've used Finale for 11 years and thousands of hours, all on simple entry, and it is still a painful distressing process for me. Should I learn to use speedy entry? Do I need a keyboard to use it?
FWIW I use Speedy with a QWERTY keyboard. I've become fluent over 20 years of Finale use, but I use it for typesetting my own music (everything from large operas to short solo pieces) from both old manuscript fair-copies and also new pieces I've composed in detailed pencil sketches. This may be rather different from working as a professional copyist/engraver of other people's music, where ‘time (speed) is money’ &c.

For a pro-engraver I suspect Speedy would work most efficiently with a MIDI keyboard. My own reason for not using that method is that (before Covid) I was often on the move and didn't want to get into a habit that might create extra clobber to cart around.
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HaraldS
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Post by HaraldS » Sun Mar 14, 2021 10:15 am

In order to become not too much off topic: I appreciate the different possibilities of tuplets across barlines a lot, I found especially Wess' method highly interesting. Thank you for that.
George Holloway wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:01 am
Should I learn to use speedy entry? Do I need a keyboard to use it?
You might create a new thread or search for existing ones, as note entering methods are indeed a crucial topic for Finale as a whole becoming a useful and easy-to-use daily tool or if there remains a certain treshold. Just some thoughts/suggestions:

Fast input has some prerequisites: good hardware setup, good software setup, knowing keyboard shortcuts by heart. There's also some sort of "tactics" involved, as the Simple/Speedy/Hyperscribe decision, or how much passes you make over a score for entering expressions/lyrics/chords/etc. . Finally, there are also some clever and not-so-clever habits which can be optimized.

I started out with Speedy some 25 years ago, I hardly use Simple Entry. There's a 2-octave MIDI keyboard directly behind my computer keyboard and an 88-note keyboard to the right for short distances. I'm a piano player, so piano keys come natural to me - if you're a guitar player, a MIDI guitar might be faster for you. I use a gaming mouse with additional buttons, which trigger Autohotkey scripts for left/right scrolling.

I use additional software to enter large chords in Speedy Entry, holding them with the sustain pedal. Using that, I can later make good use of Finale's explode music function, so I don't have to enter each voice individually. I use the TGTools keyboard remapper to speed up note input, e.g. I trigger a slur backwards with the PgDn key, so my one hand can reside on the number block and trigger everything from this one position without the need to look at it. Some JWLua scripts, e.g. this help with entering slurs in multiple staffs in multiple phrases simultaneously.
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BuonTempi
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Post by BuonTempi » Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:50 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:57 pm
I am not sure I understand your words “actual tuplets over barlines (without using fake barlines) are impossible in Finale”.

Generally it is difficult to find something that Finale can not do.
Here's Robert Patterson's own documentation:

Finale does not support beams over barlines, so users have commonly implemented them one of two ways:

1. Extending the beams on the left and right so that they meet at the barline and then lining up the angles. (Extra extremely tedious work is required if only a single note is on either side of the barline.)
2. Placing the notes on the right side of the barline in the previous bar and manually dragging them into alignment. (This only works if the beam does not cross a system break.)


When George Holloway says "actual tuplets over barlines are impossible", I suspect he means that Finale doesn't have the concept in its data structures. It's not a 'real' tuplet over a barline. It's a graphical illusion.

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