MM Feature requests

[Knut]

Well, here's a feature request: perhaps Articulations should have categories like Expressions, and the options should include a tickbox for "can be on a rest".

One of the beauties of Finale is its flexibility. To take another example: currently, you can put a lyric on a rest. Dorico doesn't let you do that. Now some would say that there's no need, and that Finale shouldn't let you do that either. However, I read a discussion in the old forum where some people argued against implementing that, because they used that capability to achieve a certain effect.

I dare say there's someone doing some kind of notation that uses rests to represent different characters in a different font, and need to put some different symbol as an articulation on the top.

I would also suggest that it can be helpful to say "I can't replicate the problem you're having", as that might indicate that the problem can be fixed, or that its cause can be isolated.

Totally agree!

[John Ruggero]

Well, here's a feature request: perhaps Articulations should have categories like Expressions, and the options should include a tickbox for "can be on a rest".

Absolutely. I hope that you will make that request at MM.

[NickG]

One of the beauties of Finale is its flexibility. To take another example: currently, you can put a lyric on a rest. Dorico doesn't let you do that.

Not true, you can put a lyric on a rest in Dorico

[BuonTempi]

Not true, you can put a lyric on a rest in Dorico

Fair enough. Last time I tried, by default, it skips over rests. However, the point I'm illustrating is that for every instance of Finale doing something to help by assuming some rule of music notation, there's a user who doesn't want that because the notation they write is different.

[Knut]

One of the beauties of Finale is its flexibility. To take another example: currently, you can put a lyric on a rest. Dorico doesn't let you do that.

Not true, you can put a lyric on a rest in Dorico

You're right, but I think the point about Finale's flexibility still stands. The fact that you can do almost anything in Finale, even if it breaks the rules is IMO it's strong point. As I've pointed out elsewhere, this allows for a very flexible application without the need to address and implement specific behavior for every single music notation scenario known to man. While it might not be the best strategy to secure the education market, I believe Finale is best served honing this idiosyncrasy rather than trying to replicate the more pedagogical, but inevitably more limited behavior of Sibelius or Dorico. It surely wouldn't be to everyone's liking, but it would allow Finale to remain a 'pro' application in the truest sense of the word, as well as set it clearly apart from the competition.

[NickG]

Not true, you can put a lyric on a rest in Dorico

Fair enough. Last time I tried, by default, it skips over rests. However, the point I'm illustrating is that for every instance of Finale doing something to help by assuming some rule of music notation, there's a user who doesn't want that because the notation they write is different.

True. It does skip over the rest but you can click the rest and type in the lyric then continue.

[ebiggs1]

I dare say there's someone doing some kind of notation that uses rests to represent different characters in a different font, and need to put some different symbol as an articulation on the top.

Unless I was absent in theory class that day there is no situation where an accent mark is on a rest. Just like a tie with an accidental doesn't honor the accidental. That is a slur not a tie but Finale does it.

[motet]

I can't argue with you, but I'm afraid Finale is a "provides you with enough rope to hang yourself" sort of program and this probably won't change anytime soon, if ever. But meanwhile there is a "Check ties" under Utilities/Check notation that should catch the problem you mention. For changing notes into rests, if you use the Selection tool to select the note and press Backspace (or Mac equivalent) it will remove any articulations as well as turning the note into a rest, so you could perhaps get used to doing that in that situation.

[BuonTempi]

Unless I was absent in theory class that day there is no situation where an accent mark is on a rest. Just like a tie with an accidental doesn't honor the accidental. That is a slur not a tie but Finale does it.

My argument is purely based on my experience of almost every new feature in Finale, where rule-based limitations in an attempt to "help" have been met by an outcry from people who want the flexibility to do otherwise.

The latest update to Finale 25 did include improvements in how notes with accidentals are written over barlines. It won't stop you doing it if that's what you want.

[ebiggs1]

Just like a tie with an accidental doesn't honor the accidental. That is a slur not a tie but Finale does it.

It won't stop you doing it if that's what you want.

There is no possible way a tie with an accidental not being the same note happens in music. That is a slur.

[John Ruggero]

In Finale 2014.5, a tie may be added after any note. It doesn't matter what the following note is or even if there is no following note. That is a good thing, because it allows one to add a lasciar vibrare tie to any note.

[John Ruggero]

I can't argue with you, but I'm afraid Finale is a "provides you with enough rope to hang yourself" sort of program and this probably won't change anytime soon, if ever.

While it might not be the best strategy to secure the education market, I believe Finale is best served honing this idiosyncrasy rather than trying to replicate the more pedagogical, but inevitably more limited behavior of Sibelius or Dorico. It surely wouldn't be to everyone's liking, but it would allow Finale to remain a 'pro' application in the truest sense of the word, as well as set it clearly apart from the competition.

I think that it would be very easy for Finale to address Motet's just criticism, while also following Knut's directive, by changing a little of the default behavior, like tie tips not set to 0 width, first and second endings that look standard., improving line settings etc.—and supplying missing elements that users now have to create on their own, like cresc._ _ _ _ _ , octave indications that can slope, adjustable parentheses, parenthetical and bracketed dynamics and articulations etc. GIve users alternative exhaustive expression and articulation libraries, for those that need them.

[motet]

I'm not sure I was offering up criticism, just pointing out that Finale is powerful enough to get you into trouble if you're not careful. I think it's a matter of philosophy how much the program should hold your hand. It sounds like tieing an accidental across the barline,a common mistake, has been fixed with the latest version. It's true it lets tie a F to an G, but my answer would be, don't do that (I have by the way occasionally tied an F-sharp to a G-flat, for example, at a key change). There is a utility to check for tieing errors, as I said. I can't think of why you'd want to put an accent on a rest, but if someone wants to do that, why not?

I agree with John that better defaults would be good.

[ebiggs1]

It's true it lets tie a F to an G, but my answer would be, don't do that.

You may have hit the tie button in Finale but you created a slur in music. I fail to see why this is so difficult to understand.

What embouchure or tongue do you use for an accented quarter rest?

[motet]

I agree it's not standard notation, but if someone wants to do it for some reason, why not?*

The way the ties work has never created a problem for me. There are lots of things that can be done mistake. You can accidentally enter the wrong notes, too.

*Edit: I think it was maybe in this topic that someone complained Dorico couldn't put lyrics on rests? So, for whatever reason, someone wants to do that, and perhaps they would want such lyrics accented--I don't know. My real point is to not make restrictions if not necessary. Give people the freedom to do what they want.

[MikeHalloran]

At the risk of contributing to some of the absurdity, I once wrote a humorous piece that included accented rests. It was written in the '70s, before notation software existed.

How nice to know that I can set it in Finale if I want. Maybe, someday...

I can imagine some dystopian future where an old, grizzled composer tells music students of the ancient days when music was drawn by hand—and the look of disbelief on the faces of the listeners.

Back to the OP. The main reason that notation software is so difficult to get right is that, in Western notation, music is not written out. It is drawn. Deems Taylor once wrote an eloquent article explaining this fact.

[ebiggs1]

... I once wrote a humorous piece that included accented rests.

That is where accented rests belong. The tie issue remains impossible.

[BuonTempi]

I think that it would be very easy for Finale to address Motet's just criticism, while also following Knut's directive, by changing a little of the default behavior, like tie tips not set to 0 width, first and second endings that look standard., improving line settings etc.—and supplying missing elements that users now have to create on their own, like cresc._ _ _ _ _ , octave indications that can slope, adjustable parentheses, parenthetical and bracketed dynamics and articulations etc. GIve users alternative exhaustive expression and articulation libraries, for those that need them.

Perhaps this is something that this forum could do: create a "consensus" Finale default document, with improved settings over those in Maestro Default; or "essential" Libraries that include standard notation not presently implemented?

[John Ruggero]

Perhaps this is something that this forum could do: create a "consensus" Finale default document, with improved settings over those in Maestro Default; or "essential" Libraries that include standard notation not presently implemented?

Yes, absolutely. This is something this forum should do. There is already a lot of material at the Notat.io site with specific line and slur settings addressed.

[N Grossingink]

Perhaps this is something that this forum could do: create a "consensus" Finale default document, with improved settings over those in Maestro Default; or "essential" Libraries that include standard notation not presently implemented?

Yes, absolutely. This is something this forum should do. There is already a lot of material at the Notat.io site with specific line and slur settings addressed.

I agree!

Perhaps one way to approach this would be to have members submit a text file containing the appropriate symbols or document settings. For example, one person's line, slur and tie settings. Another person's articulations, text expressions or smart shapes. When appropriate, a Finale file could accompany each member's submission detailing individual settings for each symbol or option pane.

Perhaps the forum owner could set up a sticky thread so that the topic could be easily referenced. I personally would be ready to participate in such a project. Let's see where this goes. Everybody, please add your input so this idea starts to roll.

N.

[John Ruggero]

Perhaps one way to approach this would be to have members submit a text file containing the appropriate symbols or document settings. For example, one person's line, slur and tie settings. Another person's articulations, text expressions or smart shapes. When appropriate, a Finale file could accompany each member's submission detailing individual settings for each symbol or option pane.

Perhaps the forum owner could set up a sticky thread so that the topic could be easily referenced.

I am in as soon as a sticky thread is set up, or i could just start a thread if that is desired. The following has an extensive discussion of line settings including a list of settings drawn from it toward the end.

http://notat.io/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55

[miker]

If all forums have the same information, why do we need more than one? If notat.io already has the information, why repost it, here?

Further, I sincerely doubt that you would ever get a "concensus" default doc. Why else do we have options?

(Please note, I am speaking as a contributor, not a moderator!)

[N Grossingink]

Further, I sincerely doubt that you would ever get a "concensus" default doc.

You're right. One way to approach it is to take the Finale defaults and add additional symbols and text within the framework of the Finale default fonts, basic settings, etc. I have a library of parenthesized dynamic marks (not included in Finale's default) along with a read-me that's all ready to go. If you, as a moderator, could set up a sticky thread I'll post it. Hopefully, that would start the ball rolling.

N.

[miker]

Again, I'm not sure that would work. I have no use for parenthesized dynamics, and I suspect you don't need the section headers for barbershop music.

Why not just make your file as a library, so those who want it, can use it?

[ttw]

I'd like to endorse the ability to ask about a problem and get the answer, "It works for me." I ran a spectral analysis (with Audacity) on the output WAV function from a Finale score. I got a frequency cutoff at 15000cps and a shape that looked like 128bit mp3s do. I asked about this and was told that other people do better. So I chased the output parameters, found out that these (in Aria) are set by Windows, found out that Windows uses the video software, fixed that. Now I can (for final output) get higher quality stuff from Garritan.

Are requests to Make Music more properly termed an "Alfred Plea"?