Things that move in pdf files

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gary-duane
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Things that move in pdf files

Post by gary-duane » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:51 am

I print out music in my lessons on an "as needs basis", so anything that looks right on screen is going to look fine printed out. No problems, ever.

But lately I have exported to pdf to share certain things with friends or other teachers who do not have Finale, and certain things always moved unexpectedly in Finale 2012 pdfs. I don't remember if I tried the same thing with the latest Finale before I could not open it (problem now fixed), so I wondered if other people have had the same problem with older programs. The biggest problem was fingering moving, but other marks also moved.

Re: Things that move in pdf files

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BuonTempi
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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by BuonTempi » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:05 am

Are you using Finale's own export to PDF, or a system-wide PDF maker via the print dialog? The latter is more advisable.

Do you get the same problem when you print the page to a printer?

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MikeHalloran
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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by MikeHalloran » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:03 pm

25 has two basic ways. One is through the Print menu. As has been suggested, Windows users often have better success using a 3rd party solution.

The other way is through the Graphics menu, Export and select .pdf from the drop-down. If this works for you, it renders smaller files that are easier to email. You don't have the many options available in the Print menu but if it works, if works.

I'm on a Mac so I can't be of much more help than that.
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motet
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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by motet » Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:27 pm

Windows also has Export in the File menu. It's likely to be the same as what's available from the Graphics menu. The latter is only going to be smaller by virtue of the fact that you can limit what's exported.

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David Ward
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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by David Ward » Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:42 pm

motet wrote:Windows also has Export in the File menu. It's likely to be the same as what's available from the Graphics menu. The latter is only going to be smaller by virtue of the fact that you can limit what's exported.
On a Mac the PDF from F 25 exported from the Graphics menu is not only a smaller file, but one that displays with greater clarity at any view % on-screen, probably because it is true black and white unlike a PDF from F 25 via the print menu.

BTW, does anybody know a way to export a PDF via Graphics as ‘2-up’? I needed such a PDF yesterday. It was easy to do the 2-up PDF via the print menu, but…
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BuonTempi
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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by BuonTempi » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:23 pm

David Ward wrote:On a Mac the PDF from F 25 exported from the Graphics menu is not only a smaller file, but one that displays with greater clarity at any view % on-screen, probably because it is true black and white unlike a PDF from F 25 via the print menu.
Really? I thought it was the other way round! I do all my PDFs from the print menu, and the output is all black and white. I was recently advised against Finale's Graphics Tool export, because it was RGB.
However, either way, the on-screen clarity should not be affected by the colourspace.

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David Ward
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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by David Ward » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:44 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
David Ward wrote:On a Mac the PDF from F 25 exported from the Graphics menu is not only a smaller file, but one that displays with greater clarity at any view % on-screen, probably because it is true black and white unlike a PDF from F 25 via the print menu.
Really? I thought it was the other way round! I do all my PDFs from the print menu, and the output is all black and white. I was recently advised against Finale's Graphics Tool export, because it was RGB.
However, either way, the on-screen clarity should not be affected by the colourspace.
See some of Peter Thomsen's comments here (through at least three different posts in the thread) http://www.finaleforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... sen#p52563 He's certainly right about the comparative file size AND I can demonstrate here that a PDF of a complete 50 plus stave page displays with pristine clarity on a large portrait oriented monitor if the PDF comes via exported graphic, which it very definitely does not if the PDF comes via the print menu (blurred stave lines &c). Scores with fewer staves are perhaps a little less sensitive. This is with Finale 25.
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MikeHalloran
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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by MikeHalloran » Tue Jul 25, 2017 8:19 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
David Ward wrote:On a Mac the PDF from F 25 exported from the Graphics menu is not only a smaller file, but one that displays with greater clarity at any view % on-screen, probably because it is true black and white unlike a PDF from F 25 via the print menu.
Really? I thought it was the other way round! I do all my PDFs from the print menu, and the output is all black and white. I was recently advised against Finale's Graphics Tool export, because it was RGB...
No. Print menu is not true black and the files are good deal larger.
However, either way, the on-screen clarity should not be affected by the colourspace.
Perhaps it shouldn't be but the difference is visible. It is much more noticeable on a printed page, however. There were many threads about this on the official board about this "bug" till everyone figured out that MM did this on purpose (still no explanation of why). In one of them, I went back to F-1998 to compare output and file sizes of many Finale versions.

2014/2014.5 had this too except that you could get real black and small file sizes from the Print menu so not that many used Graphics/Export to generate .pdf files. I don't know about 2012 since I skipped that version but 2011 and earlier had only Print.
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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by motet » Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:06 pm

The Print-menu PDF file may be bigger than the Graphics tool PDF on the Mac--perhaps the Mac OS PDF software is poorly implemented--but on Windows (which is what the O.P. was asking about) a CutePDF-printed file of a test page is 49K versus 192K from the Graphics tool. So that advice doesn't transfer from the Mac to Windows.

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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by MikeHalloran » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:34 pm

motet wrote:The Print-menu PDF file may be bigger than the Graphics tool PDF on the Mac--perhaps the Mac OS PDF software is poorly implemented--but on Windows (which is what the O.P. was asking about) a CutePDF-printed file of a test page is 49K versus 192K from the Graphics tool. So that advice doesn't transfer from the Mac to Windows.
You are using a 3rd party PDF tool to get those results. What happens when you don't?

My one-page test file saves to 81k through the Print menu, 39k through Graphics and 23k through Adobe Acrobat. These numbers are absolutely meaningless since it's not your test file.
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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by motet » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:38 am

On Windows, the only way to get PDF via the Print menu is with third-party tools. If you want to compare, the one-page score from the Finale default document is 10K using CutePDF and 42K using the Graphics tool or File/Export, which are very likely the same thing. CutePDF uses Gnu Ghostscript.

Do you send things to Adobe Acrobat via the Print menu?

The O.P. has Windows, so your statement about the Graphic tool file being smaller is wrong, I'm afraid. And the mis-rendered file he complains about is probably due to Finale's PDF code, which has bugs on Windows, and which the Graphics tool likely uses.

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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by zuill » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:53 am

A lot of interesting discussion about methods of producing pdfs. Since we haven't heard back from the OP, I guess we won't be able to figure out why things are moving around in his file. If we could examine and test a file, we might be able to get to the bottom of the issue. It may have nothing to do with how the pdf was created in the first place.

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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by Djard » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:10 am

My experience has been that when a document is viewed at 200%, only then can I get a fairly accurate representation of what the score will look like in hard copy print. So I read music at 100% and edit at 200%.

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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by BuonTempi » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:17 am

Ah. According to the What's New list, Finale's Graphic Export ONLY outputs 100% K when Transparency is selected. Otherwise, it's RGB.

For me, the PDFs from MacOS's print menu are also 100% K - I've just checked in Acrobat's preflighting. This didn't used to be the case for several versions (2012? to 2014.5), but I for one kept prodding MM about it, and I thought this was fixed some time earlier in the 25 cycle, so am surprised to hear that others think it's not. Would love to see a PDF from 25.4 that isn't Black from the MacOS print menu, if anyone has one.

As for size, the difference is insignificant. I stopped worrying about Kilobytes last century. My largest PDF from Finale is 2.3Mb. Even if I had 1000 of such files, it's piffling.

I'd be intrigued to see examples of the clarity issue, too, which is very odd. Assuming they're both vector, then it can only be some artefact of anti-aliasing in different colourspaces. Or something... :? Maybe display type is a factor? Retina displays?

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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by gary-duane » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:34 am

BuonTempi wrote:Are you using Finale's own export to PDF, or a system-wide PDF maker via the print dialog? The latter is more advisable.

Do you get the same problem when you print the page to a printer?
Yes. The problem is from Finale's own export. This is only a problem when sending a copy of what I do to someone elsewhere, another state or country.

I always print from Finale itself, and the print is perfect, always has been.

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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:28 pm

BuonTempi wrote:… Would love to see a PDF from 25.4 that isn't Black from the MacOS print menu, if anyone has one …
Here are 3 different PDFs from the same Finale document.

Floridor-Celestin-Bass-G.pdf was created with the Graphics Tool (Export Pages…).
Perhaps it is just me, but to my eyes this is the only PDF that looks true Black-&-White, both on the computer screen, and in print.

Floridor-Celestin-Bass-P.pdf was created via the Mac OS X Print dialog, choosing {Save as PDF…}.

Floridor-Celestin-Bass-W.pdf was created via the Mac OS X Print dialog, choosing {Open PDF in Preview…}, hitting ⌘S, and in the Quartz Filter choosing {Create Generic PDFX-3 Document}.
Attachments
Floridor-Celestin-Bass-G.pdf.zip
(102.92 KiB) Downloaded 74 times
Floridor-Celestin-Bass-P.pdf.zip
(99.77 KiB) Downloaded 81 times
Floridor-Celestin-Bass-W.pdf.zip
(135.91 KiB) Downloaded 66 times
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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by BuonTempi » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:08 pm

First, to the OP: Gary, if you could upload a sample to look at, that would be the most use.

Peter:
Yes, your Print PDF is RGB! However, a Print PDF from David Ward was not; nor are my own. My hunch is that the print driver of the selected print queue is a factor. Are you using a colour printer?

In all the PDFs I've looked at, there is some slight difference in position of elements between the Export and the Print. It's tenths of a point. The Print PDF is, as expected, identical to the version you get on paper from printing.

Another mad thing is that there are stroke widths applied to some items on your Print PDF (rests, clefs). I don't see that on David's nor my own. They don't seems to show in display or print, but they're there in Illustrator.

The display issues seem more pronounced in Apple's Preview than in Acrobat - in which some pairs are entirely indistinguishable. However, what Preview is discerning to be different, I cannot tell.

I would also make sure you've not got ColorSync selected, which can play merry hell with monotone. It's possible other print dialog settings may also be involved.

Curiouser and curiouser! I'll pass on my findings to MM. Ulitmately, as long as ONE method for getting a Black PDF exists, it doesn't really matter; though I prefer going through the print menu as I can do automated batch printing/PDF making.

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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:21 pm

BuonTempi wrote:… My hunch is that the print driver of the selected print queue is a factor. Are you using a colour printer? …
Yes.
BuonTempi wrote:… I would also make sure you've not got ColorSync selected, which can play merry hell with monotone …
I have not got ColorSync selected, but rather the printer driver’s own color management (it is a Brother printer).
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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by BuonTempi » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:38 pm

My own HP colour printer seems to produce 100% K PDFs from Finale. It uses CMYK toners. Possibly printers that have an RGB workflow give different results.

Perhaps it's worth creating a dummy Generic PostScript Printer queue for use when creating PDFs. Or something like CUPS-PDF, a dedicated print-to-disk print queue.

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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by MikeHalloran » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:58 pm

David's signature indicates he is still on 2014.5. Print to PDF will generate black if you want. It's 25 where it doesn't on a Mac.

CUPS on Windows? To quote most web sites on the subject:
CUPS is the standards-based, open source printing system developed by Apple Inc. for macOS® and other UNIX®-like operating systems.

In Windows, it can be made to work via a print server. I would lay odds that it cannot solve the OP's issue.

I think the OP is better off trying something like Cute on Windows — as has been recommended a few times already.
http://www.cutepdf.com/
In all the PDFs I've looked at, there is some slight difference in position of elements between the Export and the Print. It's tenths of a point. The Print PDF is, as expected, identical to the version you get on paper from printing
Yes, people are often under the false impression that a .pdf file is a picture of the original—as you indicate, this is not correct.

You could use Graphics to export as a .jpeg and convert that to .pdf. That would be a picture of your score and subsequent viewing will not change anything no matter what PDF reader was used.
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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by BuonTempi » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:38 pm

Mike, Apologies that this thread has forked somewhat. I wasn't really addressing the OP, but Peter, who is on Mac, about CUPS-PDF, which is not CUPS itself, but a third-party print-to-disk print queue.

I'm sure David will chip in, but I asked specifically for Finale 25 PDFs, and he sent me some. The Creator is "Finale", not "Finale 2014.5", which is what it would otherwise say. And as I've also said, PDFs printed from Finale 25 are 100% K for me. As also said, the result may depend on the print driver of the selected printer at the time.

I'm not sure I understand your point about images? The two PDFs from the same document display minute differences, in any PDF viewer, and would do if they were converted to an image.
Last edited by BuonTempi on Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by David Ward » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:46 pm

MikeHalloran wrote:David's signature indicates he is still on 2014.5. Print to PDF will generate black if you want. It's 25 where it doesn't on a Mac.
My apologies: the information at the bottom of my posts was updated when I first started using F 25 some time ago, but I failed to deal with the information under the photograph on the right.
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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by gary-duane » Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:34 am

BuonTempi wrote:First, to the OP: Gary, if you could upload a sample to look at, that would be the most use.
Yikes, I have to make one. I so seldom make a PDF since I always print out from Finale, and that works perfectly. I know it screws up bigtime for some things. Let me put that on the back burner. First of all I have to worry about contacting MM, again, and TRYING to finally get a solution to my registered program that says I am not registered.

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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by gary-duane » Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:06 am

OK, something REALLY simple for my almost beginners:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ddpw9p5p3xy7z9/PDF.png?dl=0

Check M39, 40, 41. Phrase marks moved, finger numbers moved.

What I print out from Finale:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lzryltlwivhxr0z/Mus.png?dl=0

In other words, Finale is 100% consistent in printing out exactly what I want, if I can get there.

PDFs will move anything.

I think someone else said we need an extra PDF program, but I have no idea how I would do that...

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Re: Things that move in pdf files

Post by zuill » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:03 pm

I think there is a misunderstanding about seeing a file. We need to examine a Finale file to examine the issue. Seeing a picture tells us almost nothing.

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