How to tell Slurs from Ties in older engravings

[Graeme Gilmore]

In older music when some notes are common to both chords, I sometimes find it difficult to tell if the common notes are connected by slurs or by ties, as in the examples.

1. If there differences that distinguish the slurs and ties in the examples, what reliably tells them apart?

2. If they cannot be told apart visually, how should the passage be notated if (trying to) follow modern conventions? [Gould: “All notes on one stem take a single slur, and not a slur to each note.” Behind Bars, p. 114]

The examples are from a score published in 1923 of a 4-hand piano work by Emmanuel Chabrier, Cortège Burlesque.
Example 1 is clear: all are slurs

Example 2 shows the problem. In measures 73-74 are the inner notes connected by slurs or by ties? When the rhythm changes to eighth notes, the notation of the prima part left hand (Example 3) shows that the repeated notes are tied—but do the first two pairs (quarter-eighth) follow that same pattern or, like Example 1, replay all notes?

EXAMPLE 1 [Seconda, m. 5-6]

01.jpg (19.06 KiB) Viewed 6252 times

Example 2 [Seconda, m. 73-75]

02.jpg (25.08 KiB) Viewed 6252 times

Example 3 [Prima m. 73-75]

03.jpg (30.61 KiB) Viewed 6252 times

[michelp]

If I don't miss anything... : If the consecutive notes are on the same pitch, it is a tie; notes are not "re-attacked", just sustained.
If a note moves too another pitch, it is a slur (notes are played legato over sustained notes).
Example 3 : bars 74 & 75 have the same pattern 3 x, written differently (because of the barline), but they will sound identical.

[Peter Thomsen]

… If they cannot be told apart visually, how should the passage be notated if (trying to) follow modern conventions? [Gould: “All notes on one stem take a single slur, and not a slur to each note.” Behind Bars, p. 114]

Some ideas:

[michelp]

In example 1, 1st measure, wouldn't a single slur be sufficient ?

[N Grossingink]

I agree with Gould - only one slur when 2 or more voices move. You might also consider making the slur contours noticeably different from the tie contours (higher). Also, keep the ties between the notes and the slur tips centered on the notehead.

N.

[Graeme Gilmore]

Thanks for the replies.

Is it the general consensus that when slurs and ties are drawn almost identically, all repeated notes should be considered as tied -- unless there is some element that strongly suggests an exception?

[motet]

While we're at it, how do you tell the slurs sometimes used for a "bracket" in a triplet from actual slurs?

[MikeHalloran]

While we're at it, how do you tell the slurs sometimes used for a "bracket" in a triplet from actual slurs?

If the engraver wasn't careful, sometimes you don't.

[Anders Hedelin]

Interesting question really. Making a clear visual difference between slurs and ties is probably something developed by notation software. Here some rounded lines in a Henle score, some of them slurs, others ties. No problem.

Schubert 2.jpg (36.82 KiB) Viewed 6127 times

[ebiggs1]

Funny thing Finale doesn't know the difference between a slur and a tie when it crosses a bar line.

[Anders Hedelin]

How, do mean?