Finale Forum

Macbook Pro
Macintosh OS 10.11.6
Finale 25.4.1.163

I have had a recurring (and exasperating) problem with several versions of Finale. If I copy music in one file (e.g., in the key of D) and paste it into another file (into measures that are also set for the key of D), Finale transposes many of the notes to different pitches! The truly weird part of it is that it does not transpose all of the notes by the same interval: some are a fourth, some are a major sixth, some are not transposed at all. I have tried several times to connect with Finale tech support about this, but have never received a good answer.

This is analogous to copying text from one Microsoft Word file to another and finding that most of the words were misspelled in the target file. (Microsoft Word would be out of business in a minute if this were a recurring problem.)

I have attached two files to illustrate. Starting with the source file, Trombone.quartet.harmonies.musx, I copy measures 17-20 from the piano bass staff. I then paste those measures into the target file, Trombone.quartet.sketch.musx, at measure 88 in the Trombone 3 staff. In the target file Finale transposes the first two measures down a minor third; but in the third and fourth measures the transpositions are different. In the fourth measure, e.g., the interval in the source file is a minor sixth; in the target file it is a perfect fifth! (Of course, there should not be any transposition at all, but the fact that the transposition interval changes is truly weird.)

Has anyone else had this problem? Any workarounds or other solutions? Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

I can confirm the same behaviour from your examples: but when I paste from you source document into my own default file, I get the correct expected result. So I suspect there's something interfering in your particular document.

It might be worthwhile creating a brand new document and (if pasting works correctly), pasting in your notes into the new document. Or rinse through MusicXML.

You're using a "Keyless" key signature in your target file at the second key change. Just a wild guess but that might be the problem.

N.

I think somehow Finale is confused going to Eb minor after a Keyless passage. I am not sure what the cure is, but there seems to be a connection.

Zuill

P.S.: When I change the 2 keyless sections to A minor, then copy/paste behaves properly. I guess Finale doesn't like mixing of the 2 in the same file (keyless and key signatures). Maybe after copy paste, you can change the A minor parts back to keyless if needed.

What is the point of "keyless"? If I change that passage to C major, then the paste is OK.

motet wrote:What is the point of "keyless"? If I change that passage to C major, then the paste is OK.

Maybe "keyless" should be renamed as "clueless"?

I think it's perhaps for when you have transposing instruments. Shouldn't be necessary with trombones.

Ere Lievonen wrote:

motet wrote:What is the point of "keyless"? If I change that passage to C major, then the paste is OK.

Maybe "keyless" should be renamed as "clueless"?

Certainly true in my case.

Thank you all for your focus and suggestions. I think the "keyless" sections may in fact be the problem, because when I change them to A minor, the copy/paste works. I only used "keyless" in hte first place because it sounded like the right choice for a chromatic passage that doesn't really have a tonal center. But I have to confess that I don't really understand why Finale has a "keyless" mode. (I once asked one of the Finale techs about this, and he did not have an answer either.)

Assuming that the keyless mode is indeed the problem, I hope that someone from Finale will read this thread and put it on the list of things to be fixed. Perhaps the fix would be to eliminate the keyless mode. My plan for now is never to use keyless again.

Keyless works fine when you are using that throughout the score without changes to key signatures.

Finale has another method to not show a signature, and that is done in the Score Manager. Each instrument has an option to not show the signature, which can be useful if you have transposing instruments.

In years past, before this option, we did it by using Chromatic transposition, or by using an independent key signature. There are several approaches, from what I recall over 20 years with Finale.

Zuill

Why would you not want to show the key signature for transposing instruments? Finale gives you the option to show them in the score either in the transposed key or in concert pitch.

wweigel49 wrote:Why would you not want to show the key signature for transposing instruments?

For most of the 19th century (even after the instruments gained fully chromatic capability) and much of the 20th, it was standard practice to notate orchestral horn and trumpet parts with accidentals and no key signature. The reasons for this are somewhat irrational, and date back to when horns and trumpets were valveless (or 'natural'), but the practice persisted; many people use Finale to reproduce historical scores, and need the transposing horn/trumpet parts to not have key signatures. Timpani are often treated in the same way.

Ahhh! Thank you Mr. Green for enlightening me. I knew all about the natural horns (having been a trumpet player in an earlier life), but I never noticed that the parts sometimes did not have key signatures and relied on accidentals. You learn something new every day!