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tempo equations

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tempo equations

Postby lynndavidnewton » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:06 am

latest Finale, latest Mac.

Who can tell me how to type in expressions for tempo equations, where a new tempo is expressed as a relationship between note values, the type of thing Elliott Carter is famous for. I don't know how to get the little numbers and brackets in there.

equation.jpg
equation.jpg (35.64 KiB) Viewed 802 times


I've attached a handwritten version of an example. If I knew a better way to produce one I wouldn't need to ask this question.

An anecdote: I showed this score to Elliott Carter himself once (about 1965) and he asked me about the relationship of the tempos between two bars. I couldn't explain it.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby motet » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:35 am

Alas, Maestro times only seems to have triplet brackets.

You may have to do it as a graphic. You can make it in Finale. Start with something like this, then drag things around with the note position tool to get the horizontal spacing how you want. Then save the top portion as a graphic, which you can import into your piece.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby motet » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:39 am

.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby motet » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:52 am

(By the way, if you hide the first note of a tuplet, it hides the bracket as well. Boo! That's why I moved the unwanted notes down here instead of just hiding them).
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Re: tempo equations

Postby Peter Thomsen » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:25 am

You can also create the symbol in the Shape Designer.

Attached are 3 examples - with shape expressions.
Attachments
HalfEqualToDottedHalf - 2014.musx
(20.83 KiB) Downloaded 12 times
HalfEqualToQuarter - 2014.musx
(18.73 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
MetricModulation - 2014.musx
(21.97 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
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Re: tempo equations

Postby lynndavidnewton » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:09 pm

Thanks for the suggestions. motet's method looks promising although tedious.

Peter Thomsen, thanks for the examples. I've played with the Expression Designer / Shape Designer but still don't know how to use it to insert notes, brackets and numbers. And BTW, these things need to be in a smaller size than the music. I'm sure constructing a bracket with a line tool is simple enough.

Metric modulation is common enough in modern music that I have to wonder if there isn't an easier way to do it, since it appears often in published music by reputable composers. I wonder what Elliott Carter's composers did (and presumably still do) with his stuff?

I do know my before and afer tempo markings in all cases. I may be forced to simply insert the new metronome marking and let the performer wonder if there was a relationship.

I wonder if something as simple as:

<= 80 = q = 96 =>

will work? I could tweak the playback. I just tried it and it works, but it looks cheap.

MM.jpg
MM.jpg (13.52 KiB) Viewed 747 times
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Re: tempo equations

Postby Peter Thomsen » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:01 pm

lynndavidnewton wrote:… Peter Thomsen, thanks for the examples. I've played with the Expression Designer / Shape Designer but still don't know how to use it to insert notes, brackets and numbers …

In the examples I inserted the font characters as Text Blocks, using the Shape Designer’s sub-tool Text Tool.
To position elements freely/independently, enter each element in its own Text Block.

The brackets can be done with the sub-tool Multiline Tool, or with the Line Tool.

NB:
In the Shape Designer you can Group multiple selected*) items, to create one compound, Grouped item that you can move around in the Shape Designer window (and all the individual items in the Group will move together).

This “grouping” is done via the Shape Designer menu where you have the commands Group and Ungroup.

*) To select items, use the Shape Designer’s sub-tool Selection Tool.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby motet » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:29 am

My method is not particularly tedious. I only spent a few minutes on the above. The size can be shrunk after you import the graphic. I find the shape designer difficult to use, but maybe you won't.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby lynndavidnewton » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:46 pm

motet wrote:My method is not particularly tedious. I only spent a few minutes on the above. The size can be shrunk after you import the graphic. I find the shape designer difficult to use, but maybe you won't.


Thanks for the encouragement. Out of respect for your kindness in taking the trouble to spend some of your own time answering my question, I've tried to duplicate the example you gave. If I can do that, I can take it from there. (It's a few minutes for someone who knows Finale upside down and backwards, but some of us are lacking in fundamental experience others may take for granted.)

In actuality, in a 28-page piano score I have only four of these to produce, and my own method, although a little awkward, is good enough for a stand-in. And if I can do it like I really want it, I might as well do it, so I'll give it a try.

I was able to sort of reproduce your example, but need some additional input to finish it.

In the first graphic you supplied, how did you do that without staff lines, the main point being do you lose the ledger lines that would go through or under the notes in the graphic?

I suppose the equal sign can be dropped in as a text object?

Finally, how do you save the part you want to use as a graphic? Does Finale have something like that built into it, or do you use something like Mac OS's Grab app to save a selection and then crop it, shrink it, and tweak it?

Presumably I can then import that as an expression or something? I've never had to do that in Finale.

Again, thank you for your always useful help.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby motet » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:32 pm

You can set up the staff to have zero staff lines in the Score Manger. I think I put the notes at the top of the staff, which is why you don't see ledger lines on the upper notes. Alternatively, you could keep the staff lines, put the notes way up high, and use the plug-in to hide the ledger lines. In either case you have to flip the stems up and force the tuplet brackets to be above and flat. To narrow the tuplet brackets, drag outer notes of the tuplets towards the center with the Note Position tool.

The equal sign is indeed a text box.

To save the graphic, use the Graphics tool and double-click-drag around the part you want to save. Use Export Selection on the Graphics menu and save as EPS.

In your piece, use Place Graphic to import the EPS file. After you import it you can right-click to scale it to the size you want.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby motet » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:36 pm

If you only have four, I'm happy to do it for you, or I can give you a .musx file that you can tweak to exactly how you want it.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby lynndavidnewton » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:50 pm

Wow, how nice of you to offer!

Why not send me a .musx file? (Unless I get desperate and give up.) I'd rather learn by doing
than have someone else do things for me.

The full thing I'm looking for is like the crude hand-drawn example in the original post.
A 16th note under a 6-tuple bracket followed by an equal sign followed by a 16th note
under a 5-tuple followed by the new tempo in parens, e.g., (q = 96).

I think Carter uses arrows to indicate before an after, but I think that's usually more
information than is needed.

How do you want to work it? Can you upload it to the forum or do you need an email
address, or what?
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Re: tempo equations

Postby motet » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:01 pm

lynndavidnewton wrote:A 16th note under a 6-tuple bracket followed by an equal sign followed by a 16th note
under a 5-tuple followed by the new tempo in parens, e.g., (q = 96).

Like what I posted above?

I can post the file here. Just this one or all four?

Going out to walk the dog now, but I can do it when I return.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby lynndavidnewton » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:05 pm

motet wrote:
lynndavidnewton wrote:A 16th note under a 6-tuple bracket followed by an equal sign followed by a 16th note
under a 5-tuple followed by the new tempo in parens, e.g., (q = 96).

Like what I posted above?

I can post the file here. Just this one or all four?

Going out to walk the dog now, but I can do it when I return.


I'll get back to you on that. I started prowling through some Elliott Carter scores.
But I'm also deeply buried in another project.
It may be tomorrow before I can reply.

Meanwhile, don't do anything until you hear from me. Thanks very much.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby motet » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:13 pm

Here's one to get you started. I used the plug-in Ledger Lines (Hide) and used Edit/Change/Tuplets on the measure using the settings shown below. Drag the E's toward the center with the Note Position tool to get the tuplet width you want. Do the (q = 90) in your music file with the Tempo Marks category rather than making it a part of the graphic. That way you can scale the graphic separately, and also Finale will respond to the tempo change on playback.

Feel free to ask questions.
Attachments
0529.png
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0530.png
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equation.musx
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Re: tempo equations

Postby lynndavidnewton » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:38 pm

Hey, this seems to be working. I'm distracted with other things, so haven't been able to concentrate.

One advantage of having the pieces float is that I can be flexible with it. I checked some Elliott Carter in the meanwhile and see cases where he actually stacks items, e.g., if there is stuff high above the staff to the right, he'll raise the equation and tuck the new tempo in below.

My primary question at this point:
Do you know how I can tuck arrows in there?
I looked up arrows in the manual and see something about creating lines with arrowheads.
Surely there must be some pre-made lines with arrowheads lying around in some font somewhere?

Here's what I have so far. It's not perfect yet:

MM1.jpg
MM1.jpg (5.98 KiB) Viewed 649 times


o Carter would put a left-pointing arrow under the 6 bracket and a right-pointing arrow under the 5-tuple.

o The thing is still attached to the original score, not saved as a graphic. And of course the new tempo is
a standard tempo change expression I dropped right in there and can change or drag anywhere.

o Did I guess right, that the thing to do is to save the part in brackets using Grab
(on the Mac) and then import it as an expression?

o I did something so the 6 and 5 are different sizes, don't know what, so I'll have to do it over.
I'm just experimenting with it for now.

o I'll have to do the whole thing over again using a document with a white background. For working purposes I
have my default document background color for all documents set up to be an off white (actually kind of a light green)
because it's easier on my eyes, but that means the graphic I create will be that color. It also means that the graphic
imported will be white. I can live with that.

Making headway. Thanks much.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby motet » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:15 pm

Don't resize the notes--that's why the 5 bracket got small. Instead, you can make everything smaller when you import the graphic. Again, put (q = 90) in your finale document, not in the graphic you're creating here.

You can get arrows in the SmartShape tool. Ctrl-click on the Custom Line icon on the palette and pick the line with the arrowhead. To draw a horizontal arrow, hold down the Shift key and double-click+drag.
Last edited by motet on Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby motet » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:25 am

If I wasn't clear, use a separate document to make these graphics, apart from your piece.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby Peter Thomsen » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:06 am

lynndavidnewton wrote:… My primary question at this point:
Do you know how I can tuck arrows in there? …

Several fonts have arrows.
One example is the font MaestroTimes which has arrows in slot #198 and slot #218.


lynndavidnewton wrote:… Did I guess right, that the thing to do is to save the part in brackets using Grab
(on the Mac) and then import it as an expression? …

If you do so, you will get a screen shot (bit map graphic), with the same (poor) resolution as your computer screen.

Instead, use Finale’s Graphics Tool.
When you are in the Graphics Tool, double-click and drag to select the area.
Then go to
Graphics menu > Export Selection…
In the dialog Export Selection, set the file type to PDF, and you will get a vector graphic.
A vector graphic will always print at the best resolution the printer can give.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby lynndavidnewton » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:11 pm

There's been a lot of excellent and useful discussion on this topic.

I've had to put this problem on the shelf and will get back to it before long.
I just wanted everybody to know that I haven't ignored all the suggestions.

I've had to go off to slay other dragons.
But I'll be back to this soon. Thanks.
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Re: tempo equations

Postby elbsound » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:28 am

Interesting topic. I thought that this would have been possible with SMuFl (i.e. the Bravura font).
But it seems like it isn't - or only if you work with baseline correction.
SMuFL supports many of the symbols above, but not a "tuplet bracket extension" and not the "5" and "6" at the correct baseline.

Here are the SMuFL symbols for tempo indication:
https://w3c.github.io/smufl/gitbook/tab ... notes.html
https://w3c.github.io/smufl/gitbook/tab ... notes.html

I have added this as a SMuFL feature request ( https://github.com/w3c/smufl/issues ).

It is possible though to create these tempo indications with Bill Duncan's TempoTime font.
It includes all symbolls including adjustable brackets, all tuplet numbers, all sorts of individual notes and beamed notes.
Here is an excerpt:
tempoindications.jpg
tempoindications.jpg (14.11 KiB) Viewed 519 times

A link for this commercial font can be found here: https://elbsound.studio/music-fonts.php
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