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What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

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What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby castellanos » Tue Jan 30, 2018 9:22 pm

Hi there, long time no see.
Since the locked down of MakeMusic forum, I didn't write any post... Actually I don't remember if this is my first one here. Anyways...
Coming back to Finale after many years (yes! I am a Sibelius user too!) just to create a clean copy of a cello sonata which I only have the manuscript. I got so frustrated with Sibelius (doing some basic stuff!) that I decided to come back to my first love. ;)
So, after updating Finale to the last version and working with a Surface Pro 4, I was shocked: I don't even remember how many years windows supports touchscreens in his OS; five generation of Surface Pro devices, two of Surface Books, Surface Studio, Surface Laptop, thousands of touchscreen windows devices and yet Finale can't even make a simple "pinch to zoom"... I just don't get it!!
What the hell is wrong with MakeMusic!!!???
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby MikeHalloran » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:56 am

I have no problem with MM trying to get Finale good.

Notion for iOS is pretty good. Export via MusicXML to open in Finale.I understand there are some decent Android apps out there, too.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby castellanos » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:06 am

I'm talking about Windows Touchscreen Devices, (not iOS or Android) they have been around for years and yet Finale can't even recognize a simple touch gesture. If you think this is the way MM tries to make Finale good then I'm very happy for you. :wink:
Cheers!
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby Michel R E » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:37 am

one simple answer: Finale isn't designed to be used on a tablet.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby ebiggs1 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:52 pm

castellanos wrote: I just don't get it!!
What the hell is wrong with MakeMusic!!!???


I asked Mark A. a similar question about new features. He told me they were not interested in "gimmicks" like being able to write directly into a score with a pencil. He said they thought people were more interested in serious music writing than gimmicks. It's a good thing I don't own or run a company because it certainly ain't the way I would do it. I truly hope MM knows what they are doing as others are including the gimmicks.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby MikeHalloran » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:48 pm

StaffPad's been out for nearly three years, exports MIDI & MusicXML and only costs $70. If pen entry on the Surface platform is so important, why not use that?
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/p/staffpad/9wzdncrddkrb

Or are we supposed to join the rant? Why hasn't Apple released a Mac with a touch screen? Why isn't StaffPad available for my iMac Pro? Why (fill in the blank)? Huh? Huh?

Well ... none of these are available. Don't get me wrong, I agree that all would be useful to some users but I prefer to concentrate on the available tools, if you don't mind.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby ebiggs1 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:49 pm

There are stone tablets, too. But we do evolve, at least some of us do?
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby ebiggs1 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:52 pm

I agree that all would be useful to some users but I prefer to concentrate on the available tools, if you don't mind.


If Finale had some of the now almost expected updates, it doesn't mean you have to use them. However, if Finale doesn't have them, none of us can avail ourselves of it.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby Michel R E » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:49 pm

Stone tablets, eh?

I have a PC that's a considerably more powerful than any tablet on the market. Why would I expect a company to start downgrading their software to fit what is essentially a toy?
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby MikeHalloran » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:34 pm

If Finale had some of the now almost expected updates...
When were they announced?
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby miker » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:28 pm

Michel R E wrote:Stone tablets, eh?

I have a PC that's a considerably more powerful than any tablet on the market. Why would I expect a company to start downgrading their software to fit what is essentially a toy?



Michel,

I'm not sure I would call my iPad Pro a toy. I use it pretty heavily, and it's easier to haul around than even a laptop. But I agree with you that MM needs to take care of its core issues, first.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby castellanos » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:42 pm

I don't get some of the answers here.
Why everytime I make a critic to Finale, some people tell me to use some other app? Why can't I, as a Finale user, point out some deficiencies in order to make the program better?
If the critics are not taken positive, where is the room for improvement?
Touchscreen support doesn't not imply that I can't continue to use the program as always (maus included).
Sibelius added some time ago some touchscreen gestures to the program and still works as always... Why can't MM learn from it in order to get more users? Where is the problem with that?
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby MikeHalloran » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:04 am

castellanos wrote:I don't get some of the answers here.
Why everytime I make a critic to Finale, some people tell me to use some other app? Why can't I, as a Finale user, point out some deficiencies in order to make the program better?
If the critics are not taken positive, where is the room for improvement?
Touchscreen support doesn't not imply that I can't continue to use the program as always (maus included).
Sibelius added some time ago some touchscreen gestures to the program and still works as always... Why can't MM learn from it in order to get more users? Where is the problem with that?

Why are you asking us? We don’t work for MM.

Solutions exist for the problem, just not the one you want. Complaining that someone pointed one out to you is ridiculous.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby castellanos » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:48 pm

MikeHalloran wrote:
castellanos wrote:I don't get some of the answers here.
Why everytime I make a critic to Finale, some people tell me to use some other app? Why can't I, as a Finale user, point out some deficiencies in order to make the program better?
If the critics are not taken positive, where is the room for improvement?
Touchscreen support doesn't not imply that I can't continue to use the program as always (maus included).
Sibelius added some time ago some touchscreen gestures to the program and still works as always... Why can't MM learn from it in order to get more users? Where is the problem with that?

Why are you asking us? We don’t work for MM.

Solutions exist for the problem, just not the one you want. Complaining that someone pointed one out to you is ridiculous.

If I may, there are still many Finale users out there (me included) who believe that touchscreen support would be a nice idea and a good improvement to the program. Pointing out that directly to MM or in proper forums I think it's a good way to show the interest.
With all due respect, if you are not interested or believe that touchscreen support is not important, then this post is just not for you.
I will apreciate you replays of course, but we must be careful not to get to a "point of no return". I understand your position but for me and many people this post may have a valid point.
Greetings! :wink:
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby miker » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:57 pm

castellanos,

You should understand that this is not an official MM site. As such, it really isn't the proper venue for asking them questions! If you want to officially weigh in on this topic, you should do it at

https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/ ... t_activity

Be aware, though, that you will find both support and opposition there, as well!
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby Knut » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:00 am

I think the OP's question is totally valid, and I agree with him that there is a tendency by some users to dismiss posts like this out of hand as unconstructive complaints. Even though this is not an official forum, I think it is a totally legitimate arena to spike some debate about what's going on with MM and why they haven't pursued this technology, which is what I think the OP is simply trying to do.

That said, I think the answer to the question is simple; it's a matter of resources. If Mark Adler had enough time, money and developers at his disposal to realise something like this, I sincerely doubt that he would have dismissed tablet support as a gimmick. However, MakeMusic hasen't released anything substantial for quite a while, and as far as I've read, there are no plans to do so in 2018 either. It seems pretty clear that MakeMusic is either struggling or taking their time to release something truly extraordinary, while in the mean time fixing as many bugs as they can and releasing the occasional minor update. The only planned substantial overhaul I've seen confirmed is Finale's text capabilities, which, although certainly needed, seems hardly enough to attract many new customers or wow a lot of the old ones.

Additonally, MM also has to weigh their commitment to Finale with that to SmartMusic, which, while it may not be of particular interest to many of us, seems to bring in a substantial amount of the company's revenue.

Whatever the case may be, tablet support would require time and resources that I think both MakeMusic and a majority of Finale users would rather spend differently. Personally, I have no doubt that this is the right move. Time will tell if the results will come soon enough.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby ebiggs1 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:13 am

Whether it be touch screen support or any new feature or feature upgrade is hit with strong resistance on this forum. Right, from a few guys anyway? I don't get it either. Simple upgrades much less than a touch screen is also dismissed. Like a highlighter for instance! Why would anybody not want the software improved?

The bottom line is if you don't like the new feature don't use it but why argue so strongly against it being added? Don't like a highlighter DON'T USE IT!

The kids of today use smartphones. They know smartphones. They love them. They want software that acts like a smartphone. They are the ones that are going to keep Finale and/or Sibelius successful. Don't we all want Finale around for a long time? Keeping it as is ain't gonna do it.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby bvstudios » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:11 am

To me, it`s not a matter of keeping up with the Joneses, as it were. More, it`s a matter of continuing to evolve a world-class professional-quality product. And by and large engravers are a fairly conservative lot. :wink:

Let's have a quick show of hands, here.. How many of us use the mouse as our primary entry tool, and how many use the keyboard? :?:

Uh-huh. Just as I thought. How many feel the need to add a third entry method? :?:

I use a mouse because that is what works best for me. I also use a 17 inch monitor turned vertically. It's survived two laptops and will likely still be around when this HP up and quits. So far as I know, 17-inch monitors (which display a full page at once in a size one can actually see) with touch-screen ability are few and far between in the Windows world, not to mention expensive.

Touch-screen devices (usually tablet-sized and smaller) have pretty small displays, nothing like life-size, so if you are composing/arranging a piece with more than a few staves, the chances of being able to view the entire sheet at once are really quite...er, small. I see younger-than-I folk almost every day who are happily watching streaming movies etc on 5 inch screens as a matter of course, and it makes me long for the days of Cinemascope! So i take the wife to the IMAX by way of over-compensation!

More on topic, though- in Finale, zooming in to check or fine-tune placement is a matter of only two mouse clicks. As I use a mouse, I have no need for the extra "weight" in the program that using my fingers to accomplish the same end would bring.

Maybe on a low-power entry level app, but for anyone with professional aspirations, touch-screen would simply be a waste of resources, in my own personal opinion.
Last edited by bvstudios on Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby miker » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:52 am

The question here is, what do you want to do on the tablet? We can pretty well accept that a fully useable version of Finale is unlikely. Not enough screen space. No way to hook up a MIDI keyboard or a mouse. Very poor playback. I’m sure the list could go on forever. If you must work on the road, though, think Windows whatever they call it.

So: do you want to view your Finale file? Export as a PDF, and use any number of programs. Need to listen to it? Export a MIDI or MP3. In SmartScore, you can link the audio to the PDF, and play it while you watch the score. No green line, though. You can also do annotations, and make the changes when you get back to your real computer. If you want to actually work on the score, export it as XML, and use Notion.

Yes, what I have described takes a couple of extra steps, and about a $20 investment in apps for your tablet. (What, you think Finale should give you a reader app for free?)

If ‘twere me, I would spend less time complaining, and more time adapting to what’s already there.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby Michel R E » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:04 am

One of the problems with this type of "request" is that is is usually not worded as a request but rather as a whiny complaint.
Simply look at the wording and punctuation of the thread title.

Add that the title infers that there is something "wrong" with MakeMusic not acquiescing to this particular demand.

On the other hand, had the thread been entitled "Are there others like myself who would like the ability to use a touch screen with Finale?" the responses might have been quite different.
Certainly there would have been a few who replied that this particular feature was of no interest to them, but at least the thread wouldn't sound so challenging and accusatory.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby David Ward » Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:02 am

Michel R E wrote:… … … but at least the thread wouldn't sound so challenging and accusatory.

Precisely!
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby Knut » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:47 pm

Michel R E wrote:On the other hand, had the thread been entitled "Are there others like myself who would like the ability to use a touch screen with Finale?" the responses might have been quite different.
Certainly there would have been a few who replied that this particular feature was of no interest to them, but at least the thread wouldn't sound so challenging and accusatory.


Would the subject field even take that many characters? ;-)

But seriously, I agree that the thread title isn't particularly well written, but I don't think there would have been much response to a thread title like the one you propose. More likely, the responses would then have been either yes or no, without much additional information, while the majority of forum members would have simply ignored the thread altogether.

I don't believe the OP is accusatory at all, but it certainly is provocative and challenges other forum members to debate the issue. But what's wrong with that? There seems to be a lot of emotion and loyalty issues surrounding notation software. Generally, people don't take kindly to criticism of their beloved programme, unless it's carefully worded with a very positive framing to soften the edges. Harsh or acidulous critiques of competitive products, however, is generally not a problem. It's fascinating, really.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby ebiggs1 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:38 pm

"...touch-screen would simply be a waste of resources..."


Maybe not! It just might keep MM in business. That benefits us all even if we choose to not use it. Just because you personally have found the best way to enter music does not mean it is somebody's else's best way.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby Michel R E » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:12 pm

Knut wrote:I don't believe the OP is accusatory at all, but it certainly is provocative and challenges other forum members to debate the issue.


To me, the following wording and punctuation seem more than a "call to debate", I hear lots of anger, yelling, and frustration and yes, accusations.

castellanos wrote:and yet Finale can't even make a simple "pinch to zoom"... I just don't get it!!
What the hell is wrong with MakeMusic!!!???


I can't help it, I read that sort of aggressive posturing in a post and my first reaction is defensive. I am also more likely not to take this person seriously when they write like a frustrated teenager throwing a tantrum.
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Re: What is wrong with MM and Touchscreen devices!!??

Postby miker » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:04 pm

Michel R E wrote:Simply look at the wording and punctuation of the thread title.


Let’s remember that not all forum members have English as a first (or second) language, please.
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