Inserting a measure trashes downstream page breaks

[GarryW]

Hi. I've got a problem with inserting measures without losing downstream formatting.

I'm using Finale for transcribing fiddle tunes, and then adding harmonies to the tunes. (A "fiddle tune" is, typically, a 32-bar single-voice dance melody as used for traditional folk dancing and jamming.)

To do this, I've got a single Finale file that currently contains 88 pages (3,587 bars) of fiddle tunes, one or two or three tunes to a page, some with an appended Finale text expression full of lyrics for the tune, some without; some with the new added harmonies (in a separate Layer), some without. If a tune and its lyrics won't completely fit onto the existing final page, I use an explicit Finale "Page Break" (Page Layout / Insert Page Break) to start a fresh page for the tune.

The problem: if I ever later need to go back and insert a measure into a staff system on an "old" page, all of the downstream Page Breaks go poof. They vanish. The downstream Page Breaks then all need to be recreated by hand. The Page Breaks vanish even when the new measure fits completely within an existing Staff System.

So: is there any way to insert a new measure into a book that uses Page Breaks, without losing all those breaks?

thanks,
Garry


PS - As workarounds - for this and for other problems -

1) I've tried pulling the bottom bar of the desired final-for-the-page staff system off the bottom of the page. That also creates the desired pagination. But it also goes messily poof, in a different way, when a measure is inserted upstream.

2) I've tried using blanked-out empty Staff Systems to force a tune onto the beginning of the next page. That kind of pagination doesn't go poof (hurrah), but it's clumsy: it allows no ability to fine-tune the spacing.

3) I've also gone so far as having each page in a separate Finale file (both for this and for other reasons, such as Finale slowness on the big file) -- and then gluing the output PDFs together. But that method of handling page breaks makes it really hard (obviously) to make a change to all the tunes.

I'm using Finale 2014 on Windows. All Staff Systems are locked. Nothing else special going on that I can think of.

[zuill]

I tested this with 2012, 2014, 2014.5 and v25. The only one that maintains the page breaks is v25.

Zuill

[motet]

It's nice to hear they've fixed that. I think the issue is creating new systems. The page breaks were hardwired to system numbers, so if you inserted a new system they were off by one. The full TGTools has an "insert system" function that handles it correctly.

[N Grossingink]

You might want to consider deleting the troublesome page breaks.

Make your own page breaks. Let's say a tune should appear in one page. Lay it out and lock the systems, then adjust the system margins so the systems are spaced evenly and occupy most of the vertical space on the page. There is no room for the next new tune, so its first system will be bumped to the next page. Continue similarly for each succeeding tune.

Some are going to think I'm nuts, but I lay out things in just this manner all the time.

N.

[zuill]

I made an interesting observation that the trashing of page breaks didn't occur when the system with the page break was not locked. So workaround could be to unlock those only before inserting, then lock again afterward. That could be tedious for a large document.

You might try this: unlock the whole document. That shouldn't change anything unless you press respace. Lock only the system where you are adding the measure. Then, afterward, select all and lock the whole document again.

Zuill

P.S.: Further observation: turn off AMS and AUL before this. Also, keep the systems locked on the page where inserting the measure. Then relock all systems afterward. You can turn AMS and AUL after the procedure. Just remember to turn them off if doing this again later.

P.P.S.: Still not sure this will do it. Maybe upgrade to v25?

[GarryW]

Hi. Sorry for the pause. However, I've got progress! Measures and staff systems definitely can be created in the middle of a paginated document -- if (and only if?) you use the right incantation. See below.

But first -

zuill -- Thanks for all your thoughts. Thanks for trying it on all the different versions. Alas, I cannot upgrade to V25; I'm not running a 64-bit Windows. (Yes, it would indeed be a quite a hassle to upgrade. And an expense) And I =did= already upgrade recently, from F 2003... I was hoping the 11 years' worth of upgrades would fix more things that it did!

motet -- Thank you for the pointer to the TGTools/"insert system" workaround. Alas, I am merely inserting measures, not systems... if I were smarter I would figure out how to program my own tool for the purpose... I've no idea. (I've looked at FinaleScript, but that is =not= how the plugins are written?)

mr/ms grossingink - What you're saying about using the system margins to create pagination sounds probably the same as I was saying about "pulling the bottom bar of the desired final-for-the-page staff system off the bottom of the page". And there's news!
-------------------------------------
Now, here's the dirt

I am not going to try to be complete here. But, questions are welcome.

First, I am confirming that if Finale pages were originally created by Insert Page Break, inserting a measure ("Edit / Insert Measure Stack") in the middle of the document will DESTROY the downstream pagination.

But if pages were originally created by going into Page Layout mode and pulling down the bottom right corner of the desired final staff system, inserting a measure in the middle of the document will NOT destroy the downstream pagination. Assuming you narrow the nearest following "pull down" to offset the insertion. Woo-hoo!

(Well, the above (i.e., Insert Measure Stack) will work when all staff systems are locked. Haven't tested otherwise. Nor have I tested what happens when the measures are created via Edit / Insert, or by other means.)


Second, there is the related question of inserting new Staff Systems into documents with pagination created as above. There appear to be just three (:)) possible ways of creating a new staff system in Finale:

"Begin" a new staff system (Measure / (double-click a measure) / Begin a new staff system),

"Paste" a Selected-and-cut-or-copied staff system,

and "Insert" a new staff system (Page Layout / Insert Staff Systems).

Testing reveals that "Begin" a new staff system (the method I was using) will DESTROY the downstream pagination. But "Insert" a new staff system does NOT destroy the downstream pagination. Woo-hoo!

I have not tested whether pasting destroys or doesn't destroy downstream pagination.

Strange and chaotic is the code of Finale. But, can't say that the company doesn't provide copious different ways of doing things. If one way doesn't work, try another.

(On a different subject: here's my newest Finale bug investigation: in my Finale 2014, on "playback", none of the fast-forward and rewind buttons in the Playback window seem to be connected to any functionality whatever under any circumstances. Oops?)

Thanks for the help. And, hope this helps someone.