More unwanted respacing

[dankreider]

Hi guys,

I'm getting more unwanted respacing from Finale. In this case, it's when I bump a system.

Check out the screen capture here: https://vimeo.com/258834111/3e9cb9b4e7

Any thoughts? Automatic spacing is turned off... maybe it's because of the split measure at the end of first system? This particular example isn't a big deal, but other ones are, because my margin of error for spacing is sometimes very slim. It's frustrating me!

Thanks!
Dan

[N Grossingink]

Is Automatic Update Layout turned on?

N.

[dankreider]

Yes, both "update layout" and "automatic respacing" are unchecked.

[N Grossingink]

Yes, both "update layout" and "automatic respacing" are unchecked.

Update Layout should be checked, to activate it. The problem I see on your movie looks like an update problem. I always keep AUL on.

N.

[dankreider]

Help me understand: I should have "automatic update" ON?

[N Grossingink]

Help me understand: I should have "automatic update" ON?

Yes.

N.

[motet]

Finale will sometimes update the layout anyway regardless of that setting, so it should indeed be left on.

I can't get your video to play, but I'm wondering why you need to do manual spacing with such four-square music.

[Perotinus]

Dan,
I have similar problems all the time, due to my settings. Hence, I always leave automatic music spacing and update layout off. And I constantly respace and ctrl-u while i am working. I am hoping the folks at MM will someday make it happen that whatever spacing or layout elements that you have already set in prior or unselected measures will remain despite auto spacing or updating the layout, but it is not likely to happen.
Cheers.

[Ere Lievonen]

Automatic Update Layout should be kept on at all times. Updating the layout is a vital operation for the correct functioning of Finale which should be allowed to happen whenever needed. Various layout anomalies may occur if Finale has not updated the layout when it would have been needed.

Finale will always update the layout during certain operations (such as opening a file or printing), regardless of whether Automatic Update Layout is switched on or off. Thus it is pointless to switch this option off, because that won't prevent Finale from updating the layout sometimes anyway. You will only create potential trouble by switching it off. (To prevent manual spacing adjustments from being undone you switch off Automatic Music Spacing, not Automatic Update Layout.)

The option to switch off Automatic Update Layout is a relic from the times when computers were so slow that updating the layout might take a long time, and was better be done only when the user asked for it. With present-day computers this option is obsolete, and should better be entirely removed (IMHO).

[ebiggs1]

I suspect if it worked correctly, we would be inclined to leave it on all the time.

[motet]

Updating they layout shows you "what's really there" and you might as well leave it on. Doing it manually is at best a waste of your time.

[John Ruggero]

Please believe Ere and Motet, Dankreider. You can get really crazy results if you leave update layout off.

Automatic music spacing is another thing. I only turn it on turn on for the first basic work in a file and then immediately turn it off and only apply it as needed to specific areas with a hot key, in this way preserving hand spacing, and also avoiding accidentally opening an old file with Automatic Spacing on, which can be disastrous.

[Perotinus]

I've been frustrated, nonetheless, by this for years. See below:

https://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=369246

As I recall, if I turn on auto update layout and leave auto music spacing off, I still get things like unlocked systems coming out of nowhere. I press Ctrl-U a lot, so it doesn't take too much time away.

[motet]

I've never seen systems come unlocked. I wonder if that's because you're in the habit pressing Ctrl-U all the time and sometimes you're pressing plain U by mistake.

Really, it does no good to turn off Automatic Update Layout. It's kind of like turning your monitor off and on all the time. It affects the display, not the underlying Finale data.

[N Grossingink]

[quote="motet"]I've never seen systems come unlocked.[quote]

You might want to check an important setting in Preferences > Edit. In the dropdown menu under "Reflow Systems", the suggested setting is "Across Systems - Maintain System Locks". In fact, I understand the other options can give unwanted side effects if you don't know their full workings.

N.

SystLocks.png

[Perotinus]

OK. I will try and see what happens with Auto Update on, and auto Music Spacing off. My Reflow options are set as you advised, and always have been. If you look at the post from the old forum that I linked above, you will see that I have had this problem and analogous ones for a while, and that some issues with independent Time Sigs or Key SIgs can effect unlocking of systems and respacing have been acknowledged by members of the old forum (possibly some responding to me now). In any event, thanks for the further advice and we will see what happens. Cheers.

[dankreider]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I understand the bit about "Update layout" and will keep it checked from now on, although like Perotinus I've been using Ctrl+U manually.

Also, as P described, my spacing problems continue. And yes, IT MATTERS. Sometimes (often) Finale "helps" by making huge spacing changes. This feels like either a bug or a major oversight, and it's driving me crazy. Ah well, first-world problems.

Thanks!
Dan

[motet]

It's probably because of the lyrics. You might explore some of the lyrics options.

[dankreider]

Here's another example: https://youtu.be/BcrEEaOOke4

This file won't keep the spacing on the first line no matter what I do.

The final keystroke is Ctrl+Z to undo. But it won't stay.

[motet]

That's a little hard to follow. Can you attach that file?

[dankreider]

Ok, just tried this:

1. turned OFF "Update layout"
2. turned off "reflow across systems" (does this matter?)
3. Ctrl+U to update, and it respaced it again. Print to PDF has the same effect.
4. Grab nearby hammer, pause to consider, gently set hammer back on shelf
5. Ctrl+Z to undo
6. selected the last measure handle on the top system and nudged it one pixel to the left
7. NO layout update
8. printed to PDF - CORRECTLY
9. Ctrl+U - still makes it respace

So yes, "Update layout" does seem to matter. But I'm so confused.

[dankreider]

File here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qm7zr7hxsrheq ... .musx?dl=0

[motet]

When I try to open that file it says "invalid file type." Try uploading it here instead.

[dankreider]

Motet - attached file. Thanks for your help.

[dankreider]

Motet: what I sent you may be unhelpful. I myself closed and opened the file, and it opened with the incorrect spacing.

I saved, closed, re-opened, and manually respaced the measures (AGAIN), and this time it seems to keep my changes.

EDIT: I don't see any path forward besides setting manual spacing in a file twice. Fortunately the second time isn't as difficult. Finale is only messing with the measure widths - it's keeping all my tiny manual adjustments to note and syllable spacing.