accidentals and dots crowding problem

[lynndavidnewton]

Latest Finale, Latest Mac OS.I have a piece that runs along in continuous 16th notes in
unusual rhythmic patterns. The basic figure is 6/16 + 3/4, which
appears about 70% of the time. There are also sequences of 12/16
measures. Plus a few oddball 1/4 and 2/4 bars thrown in, but only
four or five.

It's a song for guitar and voice. Here you see the basic rhythmic
pattern in the first bar:

figure.jpg (29.35 KiB) Viewed 6866 times

Notice that the dot on the level 2 dotted 8th note collides with
the natural before the B. And then the dot on the A also
conflicts with the B that follows.

This happens consistently when this figure appears at this level.

In case you're wondering: No, I don't want to make the downstem
A-sharp. For one thing, it's kind of a blue note, and it also
mirrors the voice. For another, I don't think it would help. (I
haven't actually tried.)

I've tried changing this to lay out in landscape mode. Instead of
two bars per system I get three and the same problem.

I can solve this by forcing those passages to two measures per
system. The problem exists only where there is that B-flat dotted
eighth followed by the B-natural upstem. In other bars where I
use the same rhythmic pattern, it starts on a different level, so
there are no accidentals.

Isn't there a way in Finale to force it to not collide elements
linke that when there's clearly enough room? (It's tight but it
can fit. And no, I don't particularliy want to monkey with moving
a bunch of notes. (Well ... I might.)

[N Grossingink]

It would help if you could post a Finale file containing one or 2 systems that exhibit this problem. Right now, it's just a guessing game as to a possible solution. I'm wondering about page size and system scaling. Letter size will be a challenge - reducing the system scaling (staff size) will help. You might have to go to a smaller staff size than you might find ideal. There is nothing wrong with this - I've see published music that's a bit smallish in order to solve spacing challenges.

N.

[zuill]

Hidden articulations to force spacing when using automatic spacing is a trick I've used for years. See attachment.

Zuill

[Ere Lievonen]

The one and only reason for the OP's problem is that inter-layer spacing has never been properly implemented in Finale.

Until that is changed (which doesn't seem to be happening ) the best solution is, like Zuill says, to insert invisible articulations. With them you can create extra space between notes.

In this case, you need go create an articulation with an empty character and attach it to one of the 16th-notes. By trial and error, find the placement that gives the right amount of extra space.

[lynndavidnewton]

The one and only reason for the OP's problem is that inter-layer spacing has never been properly implemented in Finale.

Until that is changed (which doesn't seem to be happening ) the best solution is, like Zuill says, to insert invisible articulations. With them you can create extra space between notes.

In this case, you need go create an articulation with an empty character and attach it to one of the 16th-notes. By trial and error, find the placement that gives the right amount of extra space.

What a brilliant solution! I've been gone all day, just read this. Looks like a great idea, and thanks for the high level instructions.

Except ... umm ... how do I hide an articulation? I've created and used a bunch of hidden expressions (very useful), but
don't see how to do it with articulations.

Zuill, what character did you use? That looks about perfect to me.

[miker]

Select the articulation, right click on the handle, and uncheck Show.

Or, create a text expression of an empty character, as Ere suggested.

[zuill]

Unclicking to show or using a hidden font don't work. Finale doesn't consider those when spacing. The only way that works is to choose a blank character. That's what I did on my example.

Zuill

[lynndavidnewton]

Unclicking to show or using a hidden font don't work. Finale doesn't consider those when spacing. The only way that works is to choose a blank character. That's what I did on my example.

Zuill

Sigh. I've tried everything I know about for the last half hour and guess I must be clueless regarding
what you mean by a "blank character". Here's my process.

o Select Articulations tool
o Click a note (The first note in the piece, shown in the example)
o Click Create on the Articulation Selection window
o Click Main on the Articulation Designer window
o The Symbol Selection window shows me 32 symbols with
nothing visible. Apparently the first 31 are literally
nothing, with placeholder unicode numbers
#32 = SPACE = U+0020. (I don't know a lot about Unicodes
or fonts and the like.)
o Nothing happens if I use either #1 or #32 as follows:
- Select and return to Articulation Designer
- Click OK to return to Articulation Selection
- Click Select on the newly created symbol.
- I found the handle on this invisible symble in the
middle of the notehead. Raised it.
- In the definition I tried selecting "Always on Stem
Side" in the Position dropdown, thinking this might
"push" stuff to the right. It didn't.

Obviously I'm once again missing some fundamental piece of knowledge.

Thanks.

[Peter Thomsen]

…
- In the definition I tried selecting "Always on Stem
Side" in the Position dropdown, thinking this might
"push" stuff to the right. It didn't …

The setting “Always on Stem Side” only affects the Vertical positioning, not the Horizontal positioning.

In the Articulation Designer, click the button “Handle Positioning”, and set a negative value for the Horizontal Offset (probably for the Main Symbol, rather than for the Flipped Symbol; I do not know whether your Articulation Designer settings favor the Main Symbol).
Try e. g. a negative value of -6pt.
This negative value will push the “invisible” articulation to the left, and Music Spacing will push the visible note to the right - to make room for the “invisible” articulation.

Also, in
Document Options - Music Spacing
select “Articulations” (in the top left corner).

[N Grossingink]

Just wondering-

After entering the hidden articulation, are you applying music spacing to that measure? As already mentioned, Spacing Options should be set to "Avoid Collision of Articulations".

N.

[zuill]

In my example, I attached the articulation to the first 16th in Layer 1, so I used a positive number to move it to the right. just another way to do it.

Zuill

[lynndavidnewton]

In my example, I attached the articulation to the first 16th in Layer 1, so I used a positive number to move it to the right. just another way to do it.

Zuill

And by "blank space" did you mean one of those empty slots 1-32 in the Symbol Selection table,
U+0000 ... U0020 (the last being a SPACE)?

I'm back and forth on this, working on other stuff, jumping back on it for five minutes at a time in the
middle of other things.

When I get this one nitty (but noticeable) problem solved, I'll be done with another project. (Woo woo.)

[Peter Thomsen]

I do not know which blank character Zuill used, but the Space character (= #32) seems to be a “safe choice”.

The Space character does have an actual width.
In text fonts the Space character is used to separate words, hence the “actual width”.

I seem to recall that some of the other blank characters have “zero-width”.

Since the articulation is used to create spacing, a “zero-width” character may be less effective.

[lynndavidnewton]

It's still not working. As far as I know I've done everything everyone has suggested.
Here's a step-by-step, starting from the score where everything except this problem
is cared for:

o Go to Document Options
- Select Music Spacing
- Check Avoid collisions of articulations

o Select Articulations tool

o Click a note (The first note in the piece, shown in the example)

o Click Create on the Articulation Selection window

o Click Main on the Articulation Designer window

o Select symbol 32 (SPACE, U+0020)from the Symbol Selection
window

o Click Select to go back to the Articulation Designer window

o Click Horizontal Positioning.
Set Handle Positioning Main Horizontal to -6pt (converts to a number)

o Click OK to add it to the Articulation Selection window.
Be sure it's highlighted. Should be last in the tablew.

o Click Select.

o In the score (in Page View) select the first measure.

o Utilities => Music Spacing => Apply Note Spacing ...

It makes no difference. I tried applying the articulation to
several applicable measures.

The problem applies to the first note of 22 out of 62 measures.
about 3/4 of them exactly the same as the sample in my OP.

Thanks.

[Ere Lievonen]

Select the Articulation Tool to show the handle of the invisible articulation.
Where the handle is, there is the articulation.
You need to get the articulation between the two crowded notes, either by dragging/nudging it manually (the fast way), or by trying different positioning values in the articulation designer window (the slow way).
You may have to move the handle really on top of the neighboring note before you get enough change in the spacing.

[Peter Thomsen]

…
o Click a note (The first note in the piece, shown in the example)

…

o Click Horizontal Positioning.
Set Handle Positioning Main Horizontal to -6pt (converts to a number) …

My suggested negative value of -6pt (= -6 Points) should push the note to the right.
I suppose that you need to keep the first note at its “default” position, and push the second note to the right.
If you attach the articulation to the first note, and set the Horizontal value to a negative number, then you are pushing the first note to the right.

Either
- attach the articulation to the second note, and use a negative value,
or
- attach the articulation to the first note, and use a positive value (as Zuill did).

By The Way:
If you program an Articulation Metatool for this articulation, then you can work faster:
just hold down the programmed trigger key, and drag across the staff.

To program an articulation metatool, hold down Shift, and hit the desired trigger key (e. g. the letter D key).
Finale will display the Articulation Selection dialog where you can choose your articulation.
From now on you can add the articulation by holding down the letter D key, and dragging across the staff.

[zuill]

Here's my file. It's a quick demo. Use it is a guide, but you need to fine tune things to your need. Attaching to layer 1 in your example is important. Don't attach it to the Layer 2 note.

Zuill

[lynndavidnewton]

Peter, thank you for the explicit instructions. Just what I needed.
The score is all doctored up now and looking great.

Thanks also for the tip on the metatool. I'll have to check the manual to see more about
how I can use that.

This job is done. Thanks to all for your patient help.

[lynndavidnewton]

Here's my file. It's a quick demo. Use it is a guide, but you need to fine tune things to your need. Attaching to layer 1 in your example is important. Don't attach it to the Layer 2 note.

Zuill

Thanks for that. I prowled around and see that you did basically the same thing as I did.
It took some head scratching to figure out what you were talking about, but I got it
now and can make use of that trick if it comes up again.

All done.