Looking for an authoritative resource to settle a dispute

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Alvabass
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Post by Alvabass » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:36 pm

Hi and thank you in advance for reading. This morning I was talking with a colleague at the university about general music notation stuff, and we got into an argument: According to him, if you put a "redundant" accidental (without parentheses) to an already altered note because of the key signature, this accidental adds to the already existing one. For instance, and according to him, a sharp sign put to the left of an F on a piece in D major means that it's an F double sharp because of the sum of the F in the key signature plus the written accidental.

Of course he's completely wrong, but he won't accept it coming from me. I truly appreciate it if any of you can point me to an authoritative resource that shows him his error without any room for questioning. I've searched and haven't been able to find anything that mentions this particular situation.

Again, I really appreciate your assistance. Thank you very much.


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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:53 pm

He's absolutely wrong. Now you have my vote to add to yours. Where was he trained? I'll steer others away from that school.

Zuill

P.S.: If a note is already altered by the key signature, putting an accidental in front of it is called a cautionary accidental. if one wants a double sharp, one puts a double sharp. Same with double flats.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:01 pm

Here's what Wikipedia says:

Courtesy accidentals

In modern scores, a barline cancels an accidental (except for a tied note)—but publishers often use a courtesy accidental (also called a cautionary accidental or reminder accidental) to remind the musician of the correct pitch if the same note occurs in the following measure. This practice varies, though a few situations require a courtesy accidental, such as
When the first note of a measure had an accidental in the previous measure
After a tie carries an accidental across a barline, and the same note appears in the next measure

Other uses are inconsistent. Courtesy accidentals are sometimes enclosed in parentheses to emphasize their role as reminders.

Publishers of free jazz music and some atonal music sometimes eschew all courtesy accidentals.


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miker
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Post by miker » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:22 pm

And for what it’s worth, I side with you and Zuill.

I’d be interested in hearing from anyone else on the other side.
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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:49 pm

Ridiculous--never heard of it. Even if such a convention existed, it would be impractical.

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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:34 pm

Alvabass, are you sure this guy wasn't just "giving you the business"?

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:06 am

Early April Fools prank? I don't think there is a tradition for this on Pi Day. Maybe he was just trying to "pecan" (pick on) you.

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Post by FwL » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:51 am

If this were true you'd be constantly having to second guess the meaning of a sharp sign on that note... wait, is that canceling out an F natural or an F double sharp?... oops missed my cue.
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Alvabass
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Post by Alvabass » Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:27 am

Thank you for your replies so far! I know the Wikipedia article on the subject, but Wikipedia isn't considered an "authoritative resource" around here. I'm thinking of something along the lines of the Harvard dictionary of music or the essential dictionary of music notation (couldn't find anything there).

And yes, this guy is serious. One of his students got a low grading on an exam because of the exact example I mentioned in my original post. That really annoyed me and that's why I want to show him how wrong he is. But I need something that he can't refute by any means.

Thank you again!

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:28 am

Scroll down to the Using Accidentals section in this link: http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory9.htm

Don't just look at the examples. Read the text. Although there are parentheses around the C# in the example explaining the practice of which we are discussing (precautionary marks in this article), the text says that it may be with or without parentheses (called brackets in the article). This is the 6th musical example in the section.

Zuill

P.S.: Come to think of it, if I encountered someone with this odd opinion about accidentals, I would probably say "whatever". and let them go on their way. At some point, someone else will set him straight. The misconception can't go on too long before it will backfire on him.
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Alvabass
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Post by Alvabass » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:38 am

zuill wrote:Scroll down to the Using Accidentals section in this link: http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory9.htm
I've tried that link before, but always get the same response: This site can’t be reached. www.dolmetsch.com took too long to respond.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:53 am

Here's a picture of the part of the article of which I was referring. By the way, the site popped up for me in about half a second. There might be something wrong with your internet connection.

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:09 am

It's disturbing that he's docking students because of this. What do others in the department say?

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:36 am

Not just disturbing, but insane.

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johnmouse
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Post by johnmouse » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:35 am

As many of us have already stated, your colleague is incorrect. I have never heard of such a thing in my 56 years of studying music. The worst part is that he's teaching? Really? I do hope this is not at any university setting.

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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:43 pm

Just adding my support to what everyone else has said: a sharp before a note, irrespective of key signature or anything else, is just that - a sharp. It cannot accumulate a key signature sharp to become a double sharp.
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Post by michelp » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:46 pm

And he is a teacher !
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Post by BuonTempi » Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:54 pm

Alvabass wrote:I truly appreciate it if any of you can point me to an authoritative resource that shows him his error without any room for questioning. I've searched and haven't been able to find anything that mentions this particular situation.
Instead of wasting your time looking for something that doesn't exist: ask him to provide a single authority or score that confirms his position.

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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:23 pm

What no one has pointed out is that this person presumably plays an instrument and apparently plays the correct notes in performance. Otherwise, he would have been disabused of this wacky notion a long time ago. It's just stating the theory that he's a bit mixed up on.

If there are students that are being affected, that's too bad and I feel for them. They should have enough confidence in their own understanding of music to go to the "proper authorities" for a resolution. If not, too bad.

I feel sorry for the person - there may be things at play that are not known by most others.

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Post by at8ax » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:45 pm

For a second, I considered suggesting that if he won't take your word for it, then he should just ask 20 other music people at random. That's a flawed plan, though, if any of those 20 people are his past or present students.

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Post by bvstudios » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:19 am

Put me on the side of the angels on this one as well.

BTW, the website works fine for me here on the Wet Coast.

(zuill wrote:
Scroll down to the Using Accidentals section in this link: http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory9.htm)
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motet
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Post by motet » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:24 am

"Behind Bars" also has examples of unparenthesized cautionary accidentals.

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Post by ttw » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:18 am

I agree with the posts here. I've never heard of the other idea, even from students just learning notation.

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Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:39 pm

Alvabass, if your school has something like a president (sorry for not being sure about the terminology), does he/she know about having a blatantly inadequate member on the staff? Abhorrent.
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FwL
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Post by FwL » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:24 pm

The real question is what this person will accept as authoritative.

A quick google search provided this site:

http://dictionary.onmusic.org/terms/964 ... accidental

First paragraph:
The accidental sign is often placed in parentheses to designate that this is a courtesy accidental and is the original note value before alteration. The use of parentheses is used at the discretion of the composer or music editor
A composer is a guy who goes around forcing his will on unsuspecting air molecules... often with the aid of unsuspecting musicians - Frank Zappa

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