Tuplet over Systems / bar lines

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Arturo
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Post by Arturo » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:41 pm

Hi,
Is there a plugin for tuples over systems / bar lines ?
Many thanks in advance


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miker
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Post by miker » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:28 pm

I don't think so. You might have to fake it with hidden time signatures and expression barlines. (Yes, I know that mathematically, that barline should be right through the middle of the triplet. But that looks bad, to my eye.)
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Vaughan
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Post by Vaughan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:32 pm

You could notate the second quarter of the triplet as two tied eighths with a beam over the barline. If you do this using the Patterson plugin, it'll even work over a system break.
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Arturo
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Post by Arturo » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:02 pm

I don't understand Vaughan, could you please send an image ?

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:20 pm

Arturo wrote:… Is there a plugin for tuplets over systems / bar lines ? …
The really big question:
What should your layout look like where the tuplet goes across a system break ? ?

Could you perhaps attach a graphic that shows a tuplet across a system break - with the specific layout you need ?

Here is an example showing an 18-tuplet across a system break - with a “cheat”: using two 9-tuplets instead of one 18-tuplet:
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Vaughan
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Post by Vaughan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:26 pm

AFAIK, there are two ways of doing this (using Speedy). The first one is done by starting to enter the triplet on the 4th beat and when one gets to the second tuplet quarter, letting Finale move the rest of the tuplet to the next measure. This will, in essence, create two 8th tuplets, so you'll need to use the Patterson plugin to beam over the barline and you'll have to fake the tuplet bracket, which I didn't bother with here. The second is by entering the second triplet quarter note as two eighths, thereby overfilling the measure. You can either turn off check for extra notes and/or jump to next measure, or just ignore Finale's error messages. The tuplet bracket will be correct and you can beam the two eighths yourself, but you'll have to respace the tuplet manually. Once again, I wasn't terribly careful with this but you get the idea.
tuplets over barlines.png
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Post by Vaughan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:29 pm

Peter got in before I finished writing. He used the method of my first example, i.e. splitting the tuplet into two parts. The method you choose is largely dependent on what kind of tuplet you want to split, as well as where exactly you need to split it.
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Arturo
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Post by Arturo » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:35 pm

and for quarter notes tuplet where there's no beam ?

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miker
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Post by miker » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:58 pm

Take a look at my first response. You'll have to decide where you want the barline.
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:19 am

Arturo wrote:and for quarter notes tuplet where there's no beam ?
Do you mean for a Quarter Triplet across a system break?

Here is one way to do it - with a “cheat”: using two eighth-triplets instead of one quarter-triplet:
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BTR1701
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Post by BTR1701 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:41 am

miker wrote:I don't think so. You might have to fake it with hidden time signatures and expression barlines. (Yes, I know that mathematically, that barline should be right through the middle of the triplet. But that looks bad, to my eye.)
So if you're working in score format, not just one line/instrument, all the other instruments in the 'faked' measure with the hidden time signature will require a lot of hidden rests, making any kind of realistic playback impossible, yes?

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Post by David_ » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:12 am

This is slightly OT but I saw an instance of Mike's solution above in a published edition and the question struck me: is it notationally okay to do this? i.e. have the first printed note/rest/whatever of a new measure not actually on the first beat - isn't this why barlines were invented? Vaughan and Peter's solution may look more involved but seems more musically correct - however, I'd be happy to know if I'm wrong :)
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:26 pm

There should always be a note squarely on the first beat of the bar, not straddling it–in this case a triplet eighth tied from the previous bar's last triplet eighth. That way the player can see the beats and the subdivision is visually revealed. If you want to get fancy and do it the way you saw, you're inviting players to "fake it". Additionally, musicians tend to have a lower opinion of new music that's not clearly notated.

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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:49 pm

Nothing wrong with a tie!

Then there's the "dot over the barline" one sometimes sees in old Breitkopf parts:

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