Dorico, Finale, and crystal balls

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dankreider
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Post by dankreider » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:10 am

I've used Finale daily since 1999. I know it well for what I do - standard sorts of stuff, and sometimes some engraving nuances. Like most of you, I have hotkeys, custom libraries, and lots of templates that I've amassed over the past (almost) 20 years. I don't have any major complaints. Finale works fine for me.

I'll keep it short. Two questions:

1. What are these systemic problems with MM that I hear people alluding to? I see them popping up frequently and it's troubling. Is MM in decline? Hunches are ok, but data would be better, if anyone has it to share. Will Finale still be around in 10 years—and not only around, but continually improved and updated? What's going on with the company? Or is this just par for the course: forums being the place to voice complaints?

2. Is there compelling reason to invest hundreds of hours (and dollars) to learn Dorico? Many of us on this forum use Finale as our livelihood. Workflow matters and deadlines are real. A change of this magnitude would have a massive impact on my efficiency for the foreseeable future. Not to mention the hundreds of projects that reside exclusively in Finale... and perhaps most importantly, we have to speak the language of the larger music industry. Is Dorico that much better—not just slick and different, but truly superior enough to warrant the plunge? I'm speaking as a professional, not a hobbyist (I'm speaking of vocation, not skill. Many hobbyists on this forum are far better in Finale than I am!).

I'm willing to take a long-term view, but I just don't have enough data. Anyone?

Thanks!
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miker
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Post by miker » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:50 pm

Many of us are very close to, or already on the far side of 70 years old. Speaking for myself, I'm not too concerned that Finale may not be here in 10 or 15 years. I probably won't be, either. (All respect and props to David Ward!)

I'm not denigrating your concern. It's certainly a valid one. But it's one of those questions with no answer. Finale could close down tomorrow. Daniel Spreadbury could be hit by a truck. Sibelius could be sold to a conglomerate that doesn't care.

My own advice would be to stay with what you know, until - and unless - you are forced to make a change.
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Post by FwL » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:51 pm

dankreider wrote:What are these systemic problems with MM that I hear people alluding to?

Layer collisions is a huge issue for me. I notate a lot of guitar music. I stopped upgrading after 2010, but finally upgraded to 25.5 based on them finally fixing one issue with accidentals in layers.
A composer is a guy who goes around forcing his will on unsuspecting air molecules... often with the aid of unsuspecting musicians - Frank Zappa

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dankreider
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Post by dankreider » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:26 pm

@miker: I'm 36! :lol:

Your point is well-taken. To be honest, I'm getting tired of all the micro-tweaks in Finale. Usable orchestral scores for my players require sometimes an hour of manual adjustments. I'm tempted.
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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:53 pm

miker wrote:… … …(All respect and props to David Ward!)… … …
:D :D :D
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Post by MikeHalloran » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:02 am

Does Dorico support MusicXML 3.0 or 3.1 and how good is the import?

For years, I did note entry in Encore and exported anything important to Finale where I could add lyrics and tweak to my heart's content. Large scores were begun in Finale.

If the xml export from Finale / import to Dorico is decent, then that may be the best of both worlds once Dorico is ready.

Nowadays, I'm using SmartScore X2 Pro to scan those Encore files into xml 3.0 as it picks up the lyrics quite well.
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Post by mmike » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:34 am

Does Dorico support MusicXML 3.0 or 3.1 and how good is the import?
I exported a large orchestral score including voices and lyrics from Finale 2014.5 (perfectly tweaked and formatted, at least to my taste and preferences - large time signatures, no key signatures, etc.) via XML (don't know what version that would be, though) to Dorico 2 Pro. All the musical information seems to be there (notes, articulations, expressions, smart shapes, lyrics, but no text blocks). Looking at it in Galley (= Scroll) View it's all quite readable, but lyrics appear sometimes in strange (vertical) positions , courtesy accidentals are added or removed (because it apparently thinks it's in a C key signature), fonts and some formatting preferences are changed (rehearsal marks, tempo indications, measure numbers, etc.).
Once you go to Page View, however, your real work begins .... Everything needs to be re-formatted to your liking, such as page formats, fonts, page sizes, etc. and playback has to be completely re-tweaked (because it is automatically loaded into their HALion VST instrument), and every action (e.g. switching from Galley to Page View) is exceedingly slow (at least on my system, although no problem whatsoever when doing the same using Finale).
I've followed the Dorico development with great interest since it began (certainly seemed like a good idea to re-design something from the ground up) and even (stupidly ... so far a total waste of money) bought it, but, as many have already said, if you have a developed personal workflow and knowledge of Finale, there is at this point no reason to switch to Dorico. Maybe some day, in the future ... (and/or if you start using a notation program for the first time and have the patience to wait for their updates to implement what often are even extremely basic features).
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Post by MikeHalloran » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:19 pm

I wonder if MuicXML 3.1 would give you better results — or did you use it?

Finale 2014.5 defaults to MusicXML 3.0 unless you download and install the free Dolet 7 plug-in.

https://www.musicxml.com/dolet-plugin/d ... or-finale/

25.4 and later defaults to xml 3.1 with options for backwards compatibility.

If Dorico isn’t supporting 3.1 yet, why not? It’s not as if Mr. Spreadbury isn’t aware of it.
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Post by mmike » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:00 pm

Wasn't aware that there was a new Dolet version. Downloaded, installed version 3.1 now, but the XML export to Dorico gives the same results.
It’s not as if Mr. Spreadbury isn’t aware of it.
See here what he has to say about that: https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewto ... on#p754690
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Post by MikeHalloran » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:46 pm

OK, that was January. A New! and Improved! version has been released since then. I was just wondering.

Perhaps, I'll test it myself this week.
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Post by dankreider » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:31 pm

mmike wrote:if you have a developed personal workflow and knowledge of Finale, there is at this point no reason to switch to Dorico. Maybe some day, in the future ... (and/or if you start using a notation program for the first time and have the patience to wait for their updates to implement what often are even extremely basic features).
Somewhat. But my approach to Dorico has been not to say, "What don't I like about Finale," but rather, "What can Dorico do?"

That has led me to things like this, which are astoundingly helpful for my work. Gamechanger. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kivzO7z4j4Y&t=5s

Not to mention piano fingerings, automatic articulation collision, pedal markings...

The only lacking feature that I am personally inconvenienced by is manual lyric baseline adjustment, which I've been told is next on the list. So I agree about Dorico being a work in progress. But it's already so compelling for me.
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Post by dankreider » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:38 pm

I'll also add that I've logged about 5 or six hours over the past week watching and re-watching the tutorials, pencil in hand. I just started to jump in to actually scoring yesterday. I'm happy to say that, after 20 years in Finale, this is a surprisingly easy switch. Dorico is making sense to me more quickly than I thought it would.

There are missing features, yes. And a couple keystroke changes I'm having to relearn ("6" is now a quarter note! Arg!). But I can already see the payoff. A month or so and I'll be faster than I was in Finale. Gone are the days of hours of score tweaking, at least for me.

To be honest, many of the tweaks I was so proud of having learned in Finale are no longer necessary.

Not trying to be a Dorico evangelist here. I continue to deeply appreciate Finale and will keep using it as needed. Just thrilled at the new third option besides Finale and Sibelius (sorry, Lilypond, Musescore, et al!).

-Dan
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Post by shnootre » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:34 pm

I finally bought Dorico when 2.0 came out. I've spent a bunch of hours over the last week starting to learn it.

Finale is fine, and I can do everything I need in it. But formatting a large orchestral opera score, and all of the parts, was so, so much work. Finale lets you customize absolutely everything, but does very little pure formatting for you.

And for those of us who are also concerned with Playback, Finale's system is an odd mix of powerful and archaic. You can achieve much, but it's incredibly taxing. With Dorico's controller automation view, and ability to customize playback events without affecting the score - AND (and this is huge) the possibility of assigning different expression maps to EVERY instrument, Finale is left very much in the dust.

There are things Dorico still can't do. It can't do Swing feel in playback, for instance, which is crazy. And though it's instituted a powerful divisi system, you still can't use it in reverse (i.e. you can't have a wind part go between one and two staves in the score, but generate two separate parts).

But. My sense after several days playing around with Dorico is that, even if it is not as fully functional as finale, it is MUCH better - programmed by musicians, with a simpler, more elegant workflow that will ultimately more than pay back the time I invest to learn it.

I have used Finale since 1993 (version 2.0 for Windows - omg what a disaster that was!!!) I have been skeptical and hesitant about Dorico, but their latest release has me pretty much convinced, and I think I'm using this summer to learn the thing, and possibly never writing another piece in Finale. I have faith that the things I need Dorico to implement, they'll do. (unlike the handful of finale pains that have NEVER been corrected!)
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Post by David Ward » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:29 am

shnootre wrote:… … … …  I have faith that the things I need Dorico to implement, they'll do. (unlike the handful of finale pains that have NEVER been corrected!)
Oh bu***r! I'm beginning to feel I may have to learn Dorico, although I don't much want to.

If they were to get rid of that silly dongle thing…
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Post by mmike » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:09 pm

If they were to get rid of that silly dongle thing…
Dorico doesn't use a USB dongle, but a Soft-eLicenser (with a virtual license container on your hard disk)
that, at least, isn't a problem, although I could certainly think of a few others ....
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Post by N Grossingink » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:39 pm

mmike wrote:
If they were to get rid of that silly dongle thing…
Dorico doesn't use a USB dongle, but a Soft-eLicenser (with a virtual license container on your hard disk)
that, at least, isn't a problem, although I could certainly think of a few others ....
It's my understanding that Dorico does use a dongle, in lieu of the Soft-eLicenser. Have I got this wrong?

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Post by mmike » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:29 pm

yes
it installs and works without a dongle. there is some need for a dongle in certain situations, see https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewto ... 45#p546959 for all details
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Post by ttw » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:43 pm

I read their license policy. It's not worth the effort for a music hobbyist like me. Finale at least lets me deregister and reregister electronically. I prefer SilverFrost Fortran; their only restriction is that all output gets a watermark if using the free edition.

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Post by Harpsi » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:01 am

To question 2:

I believe it's worth it.
Before starting a "real" project though, just make sure that what you can't compromise with can be done without too cumbersome workarounds.

When I started working with Dorico I made a script for the numpad emulating Finale's shortcuts, that made things easier.
For a power user the entry phase in Finale is much more efficient, but Dorico wins when it comes to layout, spacing, and NOT having to micro adjust details ad nauseam. So in all, for the projects I can do in Dorico, I save time and money.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:28 pm

dankreider wrote: Not trying to be a Dorico evangelist here. I continue to deeply appreciate Finale and will keep using it as needed. Just thrilled at the new third option besides Finale and Sibelius (sorry, Lilypond, Musescore, et al!).

-Dan
I am quite involved with several schools around here including four universities. All of them use either Sibelius or Finale. Not that, that means anything, just saying. As far as I can tell none have any notion of changing.

I do think Finale is falling behind in true upgrades and features. If they don't up their game they could find themselves looking in from the outside.
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Post by mbhaub » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:12 am

I've been playing with Dorico 2.0 Pro for 10 days now with the free trial they offer. Maybe I'm just old and unable to change paradigms, but for me, and the way I write/arrange/compose Finale makes a lot more sense. People complain about Finale having a steep learning curve and being very difficult to master - it is! But Dorico is not one bit easier, and some things are harder. Plus, so far it has no 3rd party support like TG and Patterson. I just hope Make Music is doing well and they will continue to improve and debug Finale - for me, and I suspect many others, it's perfectly fine and does what we need. If they would just find a way to make multi-movements easier!

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Post by dankreider » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:57 am

@mghaub: again, not trying to proselytize here, but the first step is to watch the excellent tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIOwP1 ... 50&sort=dd

If you just jump in, I agree it's frustrating and baffling. But I watched the tutorials first—actually going on 3 times now—and it helped immensely. Dorico is different but I find myself quickly adapting.
mbhaub wrote:it has no 3rd party support like TG and Patterson
The ONLY reason for these 3rd-party tools is to fix shortcomings in Finale. Why would you prefer a program that required all sorts of extras to accomplish basic tasks?
mbhaub wrote:If they would just find a way to make multi-movements easier!
Multi-movements in Dorico is a simple thing, just saying. ;-)

I'm not abandoning Finale by any means. Just loving Dorico as well.
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Post by MikeHalloran » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:40 pm

The only lacking feature that I am personally inconvenienced by is manual lyric baseline adjustment,
Yea, absolute deal breaker with me.
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Post by Bill Reed » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:22 pm

I'm having another look with the 2.0 demo. There's no online help for play mode. I appears you can only address 1 MIDI port (16Ch). Can that be true?
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Post by dankreider » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:16 pm

I haven’t gotten that far yet. The documentation is in progress. In the meantime, check out of the Dorico YouTube channel, go to playlists, “how to: play mode.”
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