a.2 in Finale
Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker
I am writing a piece for full orchestra. At times, I wish for two voices (e.g., 1st and 2nd Bb Clarinet) both to be playing the same notes. Normally one uses the a.2 notation. I also want the score to play back realistically. This means that the two parts would reinforce each other in volume. However, wimply placing a text box "a.2" doesn't seem to do this, so I have to artificially increase the dynamic level of the part to gert the balance I envision.
So, my question (obviously) is: is there a way in Finale to make the a.2 text increase the part dynamically?
Ted David (TDinDC)
Finale 25.5.0.290, Windows 10
So, my question (obviously) is: is there a way in Finale to make the a.2 text increase the part dynamically?
Ted David (TDinDC)
Finale 25.5.0.290, Windows 10
- zuill
- Posts: 4418
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- Operating System: Windows
You can use the a. 2 expression increase the volume using a Velocity setting as you would with any dynamic. To get the sound of 2 instruments, that would be more work. Which do you want?
Zuill
Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
Primarily I'm looking for balance without having to artificially inflate the written dynamic, but having two instruments would be appealing, from the standpoint of slight mismatches in tone, intonation and timing (like a real performance). From your reply, though, it appears that Finale doesn't respond to a.2 text in playback. But could one attach playback specifics to a text box so Finale WOULD respond appropriately? If so, how?
TDinDC
Ted David
TDinDC
Ted David
- MikeHalloran
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How much experience do you have with how real instruments sound in this situation? A unison note played by two players who have been playing parts will not be louder. If the volume does not decrease, you’re good. If it does, use two clarinet VIs instead of assigning one to two parts. Plenty of reasonably priced orchestra VIs in the market.
Mike Halloran
Finale 27.3, SmartScore X2 Pro, GPO5 & World Instruments
MacOS Ventura 13.2.1; 2017 iMac Pro 18 Core, 128G RAM, 4TB; 2021 MBAir M1
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- Michel R E
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Finale doesn't respond to anything other than sending a MIDI message that activates some feature or other in whatever sound library (VST) you are using.
If you have a library that recognizes both unison and solo playing in the same patch, then having Finale send the right MIDI message will activate this.
You have the choice here:
1) try (and most likely fail) to get playback of an "a 2" marking using a single VST
or
2) simply create a playback score once your printing score is complete.
I always choose the 2nd option. Once my score is clean, the parts are made, I then copy the score into a new file, and start dividing parts where necessary to get better playback, and to add things like harmonics from a 2nd library since Garritan's strings do not by default have harmonics included in the KS instruments.
I'd also like to point out that MikeHalloran is quite right in that two of an instrument do not make the sound louder. It ALTERS the sound, but not from a volume perspective. That is, unless you're talking about going from 1 clarinet to 15.
If you have a library that recognizes both unison and solo playing in the same patch, then having Finale send the right MIDI message will activate this.
You have the choice here:
1) try (and most likely fail) to get playback of an "a 2" marking using a single VST
or
2) simply create a playback score once your printing score is complete.
I always choose the 2nd option. Once my score is clean, the parts are made, I then copy the score into a new file, and start dividing parts where necessary to get better playback, and to add things like harmonics from a 2nd library since Garritan's strings do not by default have harmonics included in the KS instruments.
I'd also like to point out that MikeHalloran is quite right in that two of an instrument do not make the sound louder. It ALTERS the sound, but not from a volume perspective. That is, unless you're talking about going from 1 clarinet to 15.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
- David Ward
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A whole treatise might be written on when and by how much the volume might or might not increase when two or three instruments are playing in unison. Interference from marginally different intonation, differing rates of vibrato and more may completely counteract any increase in the weight of sound.
I can say, from personal experiment in rehearsal, that playing the Pilgrims' Chorus theme at the beginning of the Tannhäuser Overture on one trombone projects entirely differently from having it on three, as written. One instinctively plays in a louder, edgier fashion potentially avoiding the fat, slightly vulgar sound that sometimes emanates from the unison of three large bore modern trombones played with large mouthpieces. With the equipment of Wagner's day one could probably get an edgy sound at a much lower volume - and wouldn't be able to play anything like so loudly at maximum. When modern large bore orchestral trombones are played at full volume, it can make life very uncomfortable for other members of the orchestra, as illustrated by this https://www.theguardian.com/culture/201 ... ing-damage (What the article doesn't make clear is that he was immediately in front of the trombones.)
Anyway, the significant difference between ‘a 2’ and one player is, as Michel says, more in timbre than in volume.
I can say, from personal experiment in rehearsal, that playing the Pilgrims' Chorus theme at the beginning of the Tannhäuser Overture on one trombone projects entirely differently from having it on three, as written. One instinctively plays in a louder, edgier fashion potentially avoiding the fat, slightly vulgar sound that sometimes emanates from the unison of three large bore modern trombones played with large mouthpieces. With the equipment of Wagner's day one could probably get an edgy sound at a much lower volume - and wouldn't be able to play anything like so loudly at maximum. When modern large bore orchestral trombones are played at full volume, it can make life very uncomfortable for other members of the orchestra, as illustrated by this https://www.theguardian.com/culture/201 ... ing-damage (What the article doesn't make clear is that he was immediately in front of the trombones.)
Anyway, the significant difference between ‘a 2’ and one player is, as Michel says, more in timbre than in volume.
Last edited by David Ward on Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Finale 25.5 & 26.3
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- N Grossingink
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Here's undoubtably one of the most famous passages scored for 2 clarinets in unison (at the very beginning). It might help illuminate some of what's been discussed in this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2JBT0HC98I
N.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2JBT0HC98I
N.
N. Grossingink
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link
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Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link
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- MikeHalloran
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All things being equal, by exactly 1dB—you hear two instruments but the sound pressure is only doubled = 1dB, well below the ability of most to detect a difference. Most people perceive a note as twice as loud when it is 3dB louder—this requires 8x the sound pressure which generally takes 10x the energy to produce. (Goes to Michael R E’s point)motet wrote:My opinion is that two players on a part are a bit louder than one, but not a lot.
But that’s not the issue.
Two players in the same range on separate lines will not be louder on the unison notes. How could they be? It’s the same two players in the same acoustic space. The ear perceives that note as a little softer, btw, even though it’s not. (Goes to David’s point)
Before someone calls me on it, I’m ignoring completely the impossibility of a clarinette playing any two notes at exactly the same volume (only virtual winds work that way). Physics: Not just a good idea, it’s the Law!
Enough of the real world. Let’s discuss the OP. It’s possible that some VIs will suffer a -1dB (half) drop in volume if sounding the same note — that’s because it drops to one note when it was playing two. Like a 1dB increase, a -1dB decline can’t be heard by most listeners. I already gave the workaround: Use two clarinet libraries which will likely sound better anyway. If you have GIFF and GPO, for example, that should work.
Mike Halloran
Finale 27.3, SmartScore X2 Pro, GPO5 & World Instruments
MacOS Ventura 13.2.1; 2017 iMac Pro 18 Core, 128G RAM, 4TB; 2021 MBAir M1
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Finale 27.3, SmartScore X2 Pro, GPO5 & World Instruments
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If you're using NotePerformer 3, it attempts to respect such indications sonically... for now you have to apply the supplied Finalescript to your (a2) expression, which will set the correct playback parameters...TDinDC wrote: So, my question (obviously) is: is there a way in Finale to make the a.2 text increase the part dynamically?
Ted David (TDinDC)
Finale 25.5.0.290, Windows 10