a.2 in Finale

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TDinDC
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Post by TDinDC » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:01 pm

I am writing a piece for full orchestra. At times, I wish for two voices (e.g., 1st and 2nd Bb Clarinet) both to be playing the same notes. Normally one uses the a.2 notation. I also want the score to play back realistically. This means that the two parts would reinforce each other in volume. However, wimply placing a text box "a.2" doesn't seem to do this, so I have to artificially increase the dynamic level of the part to gert the balance I envision.

So, my question (obviously) is: is there a way in Finale to make the a.2 text increase the part dynamically?

Ted David (TDinDC)
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:43 pm

You can use the a. 2 expression increase the volume using a Velocity setting as you would with any dynamic. To get the sound of 2 instruments, that would be more work. Which do you want?

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TDinDC
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Post by TDinDC » Fri Jun 29, 2018 11:17 pm

Primarily I'm looking for balance without having to artificially inflate the written dynamic, but having two instruments would be appealing, from the standpoint of slight mismatches in tone, intonation and timing (like a real performance). From your reply, though, it appears that Finale doesn't respond to a.2 text in playback. But could one attach playback specifics to a text box so Finale WOULD respond appropriately? If so, how?

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MikeHalloran
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Post by MikeHalloran » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:50 pm

How much experience do you have with how real instruments sound in this situation? A unison note played by two players who have been playing parts will not be louder. If the volume does not decrease, you’re good. If it does, use two clarinet VIs instead of assigning one to two parts. Plenty of reasonably priced orchestra VIs in the market.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:25 pm

Finale doesn't respond to anything other than sending a MIDI message that activates some feature or other in whatever sound library (VST) you are using.

If you have a library that recognizes both unison and solo playing in the same patch, then having Finale send the right MIDI message will activate this.

You have the choice here:
1) try (and most likely fail) to get playback of an "a 2" marking using a single VST

or

2) simply create a playback score once your printing score is complete.

I always choose the 2nd option. Once my score is clean, the parts are made, I then copy the score into a new file, and start dividing parts where necessary to get better playback, and to add things like harmonics from a 2nd library since Garritan's strings do not by default have harmonics included in the KS instruments.

I'd also like to point out that MikeHalloran is quite right in that two of an instrument do not make the sound louder. It ALTERS the sound, but not from a volume perspective. That is, unless you're talking about going from 1 clarinet to 15.
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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:08 pm

A whole treatise might be written on when and by how much the volume might or might not increase when two or three instruments are playing in unison. Interference from marginally different intonation, differing rates of vibrato and more may completely counteract any increase in the weight of sound.

I can say, from personal experiment in rehearsal, that playing the Pilgrims' Chorus theme at the beginning of the Tannhäuser Overture on one trombone projects entirely differently from having it on three, as written. One instinctively plays in a louder, edgier fashion potentially avoiding the fat, slightly vulgar sound that sometimes emanates from the unison of three large bore modern trombones played with large mouthpieces. With the equipment of Wagner's day one could probably get an edgy sound at a much lower volume - and wouldn't be able to play anything like so loudly at maximum. When modern large bore orchestral trombones are played at full volume, it can make life very uncomfortable for other members of the orchestra, as illustrated by this https://www.theguardian.com/culture/201 ... ing-damage (What the article doesn't make clear is that he was immediately in front of the trombones.)

Anyway, the significant difference between ‘a 2’ and one player is, as Michel says, more in timbre than in volume.
Last edited by David Ward on Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:50 pm

Here's undoubtably one of the most famous passages scored for 2 clarinets in unison (at the very beginning). It might help illuminate some of what's been discussed in this thread.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2JBT0HC98I


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motet
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Post by motet » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:31 pm

My opinion is that two players on a part are a bit louder than one, but not a lot.

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MikeHalloran
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Post by MikeHalloran » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:59 pm

motet wrote:My opinion is that two players on a part are a bit louder than one, but not a lot.
All things being equal, by exactly 1dB—you hear two instruments but the sound pressure is only doubled = 1dB, well below the ability of most to detect a difference. Most people perceive a note as twice as loud when it is 3dB louder—this requires 8x the sound pressure which generally takes 10x the energy to produce. (Goes to Michael R E’s point)

But that’s not the issue.

Two players in the same range on separate lines will not be louder on the unison notes. How could they be? It’s the same two players in the same acoustic space. The ear perceives that note as a little softer, btw, even though it’s not. (Goes to David’s point)

Before someone calls me on it, I’m ignoring completely the impossibility of a clarinette playing any two notes at exactly the same volume (only virtual winds work that way). Physics: Not just a good idea, it’s the Law!

Enough of the real world. Let’s discuss the OP. It’s possible that some VIs will suffer a -1dB (half) drop in volume if sounding the same note — that’s because it drops to one note when it was playing two. Like a 1dB increase, a -1dB decline can’t be heard by most listeners. I already gave the workaround: Use two clarinet libraries which will likely sound better anyway. If you have GIFF and GPO, for example, that should work.
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fratveno
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Post by fratveno » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:59 am

TDinDC wrote: So, my question (obviously) is: is there a way in Finale to make the a.2 text increase the part dynamically?

Ted David (TDinDC)
Finale 25.5.0.290, Windows 10
If you're using NotePerformer 3, it attempts to respect such indications sonically... for now you have to apply the supplied Finalescript to your (a2) expression, which will set the correct playback parameters...

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