Key signature after clef, not before!

[sPretzel]

Hi,

First of all, I find it regrettable that the posts from the old/legacy Finale forum were not moved over here and even more regrettable that that wonderful forum shut down in the first place! Now that that's out of the way, I shall get to the heart of the matter.

I am trying to have a single staff with two measures. The first measure has a treble clef and its key signature and the second measure has a bass clef and its own key signature. All are on the same staff. Unfortunately, the second measure shows the key signature appearing BEFORE the bass clef. I don't understand the rationale for this. I have read other threads discussing what I understood is the same issue but all only offered complicated workarounds:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15500
https://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=251289

My questions are:
1- What is the rationale for the key signature appearing before the clef, instead of after the clef?
2- How can I force the key signature to appear in the second measure AFTER its clef? (hopefully, in a straigntforward manner)

This if for Finale 2007.

Thanks.

[michelp]

Deleted.

[miker]

Is this what you are looking for, or am I misunderstanding you?

Screen Shot 2018-09-16 at 7.13.47 AM.png (98.35 KiB) Viewed 1833 times

If not, can you post a picture of what you want?

Have you considered upgrading from decade-old program?

[sPretzel]

Hi miker,

Yes, exactly what you posted. I have been reading other forum threads and was hoping there is a simpler solution for a problem that is quite simple to begin with. And I don't understand why Finale is doing it upside-down. Here is another related thread.
https://wwwfinaleforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=13043

I have considered upgrading but overall, Finale 2007 is doing what I need (except when it isn't! )

[miker]

Very simple. Make the barline of the first measure, invisible. Add in the new barline as an expression, in front of the clef. There is a single barline in the Misc. category of the Expressions, but I don't remember if it was in 2007.

[sPretzel]

Hi miker. But how do you get the flats to display after the bass clef on your diagram? Or is your bass clef a cautionary clef?

[michelp]

If you follow miker's explanation, the clef displays before the key signature, as usual.

Define the new clef in the second measure (don't forget to define clef size at 100 % !), as well as the new key signature.
This is what you get after hiding the barline of the first measure.

clef_key.jpeg (15.38 KiB) Viewed 1801 times

Then add a barline as an expression.

[sPretzel]

michelp. Thanks, got it. One problem I have is then to accurately define the size of the two measures, clef included. For example, if I want to have measure 1 and measure 2 take half the width of the page each, it's hard to do with manual input (entering the actual width value numerically). This is made more difficult by the second clef being positioned before measure 2.

[miker]

Then you have to make adjustments. Why is the spacing so important? Is there anything else you aren’t telling us?

[sPretzel]

No, I wanted the two measures to have the same width (with all the extras included, that is the clef, key signature etc.). That's not simple to do with the measure tool even if everything was in its own measure but with the second clef being in the previous measure, I don't know how else to do that but by eyeballing it manually.

[motet]

It might be easiest to put each measure it its own shortened staff system, then move them side by side by unchecking "Avoid margin collisions." Suppress cautionaries in the first measure, and turn off "double barline at key change." You can get the measure widths = system widths exact with "Edit system margins."

[motet]

(Last time i checked, the old forums were still there read-only. They can be searched with Google by adding site:forum.makemusic.com.)

[sPretzel]

Hi motet,

Thanks for the examples you provided. I ended up going the easier route, albeit not the most elegant. I simply created two sets of one measure pages with the wanted clef and key signature and desired size. I then "assembled" the whole thing outside of Finale.

Yes, the old forum is still readable. I guess that is old news now and I don't want to reopen the debate but I wish that had carried on rather than starting anew. Thankfully, despite some major name changes (like Mike who became miker ), the same folks like yourself appear to have crossed the chiasm all right.

[motet]

Glad it worked out.

By the way, for reasons known only to MakeMusic, the bottom system margin is subjected to system scaling (e.g., if you type in "96e" you get the staff height as shown in the page format, default = 82e"), but the top system margin and the distance between systems are in absolute units. So, to get the staves of the two "half" systems above to align (call them A and B), set B's "distance between systems" to

-(A's bottom margin x (staff height / 96e) + B's top margin + staff height)

This inconsistency in units had me scratching my head for a while. An example of a Finale day one screwup that's now cast in stone.

[sPretzel]

By the way, nobody aswered question #1. Is there any purpose to having the key signature appear before the clef, per Finale's behaviour? I didn't look at what happens to the time signature (before, after, in between!) so that question might also apply to the time signature.

[Peter Thomsen]

… Is there any purpose to having the key signature appear before the clef, per Finale's behaviour? …

Correct me if I am wrong, but to me it seems that Finale is doing, what it is supposed to do.
The purpose is to follow the “ground rules” of engraving.
It may seem illogical, but you can say “illogical” about many “ground rules”.

The crucial circumstance in your example is that the clef change happens at the beginning of a measure inside a system, not at the beginning of a system.

(At the beginning of a system the clef comes first)

Quoting the book “Behind Bars” by Elaine Gould (p. 8 ):
“The clef always goes before the barline, whether or not rests precede the entry.”

An exception is a mid-system clef for cue notes (p. 573):
“The cue clef should be as close to its cue notes as possible.”
Hence, where the clef change happens at a change of time signature or key signature, the cue clef is placed after these changes.

I hope that this is clear?
If not, ask again.

PS
You did not explain why you need the layout in the second measure, with the clef after the barline, but before the key signature.
The better we understand, the better we can help.

[sPretzel]

Hi Peter,

I didn't know what the "rules" were in this circumstance and followed what made sense to me, which is for the structure of the measure to follow that of the first measure. I am not familiar with the reference you provide and will look it up. In my case, the two measures are indepdenent and could be on two separate lines (or systems); it is of a tutorial nature.

The clef preceding the barline (and its default 50% size) looks like a cautionary/optional notation, in my opinion (again, I am going by what makes sense to me). Visually, unless there can be anything else between the clef and the barline, I don't see a necessity for moving the clef just before the barline instead of just after the barline. If that was a necessity, then I would argue that the key signature and time signature should also be moved before the barline to warn the reader of the change to come in the next measure. So what Finale is doing (placing the clef before the barline but the key signature after the barline) appears as contradictory to me. Really, what would have been great is that the option were given to place the clef before or after the barline, at the user's discretion, without jumping through hoops.

PS: for the anxious notation reader, I would go as far as moving the entire content of the next measure before the barline, so as to better anticipate what's to come!