Cautionary custom clef misplaced

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OCTO
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Post by OCTO » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:25 pm

I have created a shape based clef in the Clef designer,
Screen Shot 2018-09-19 at 15.23.41.png
but the cautionary clef is misplaced:
Screen Shot 2018-09-19 at 15.23.33.png
What is wrong?
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:10 pm

I recognize this type of problem; I have had a similar problem with the percussion clef (= two solid vertical bars) as a (downscaled) cautionary clef.

My first guess would that you - in the Shape Designer - should edit your custom clef, and move it vertically so that the x-axis (where y= 0) goes through the clef glyph at the vertical position of the scale step G.

You will have to adjust the clef’s vertical positioning in the Clef Designer to compensate for your editing in the Shape Designer (Clef Position from Top Staff-line should be -6 steps), but after you have done so, the cautionary clef should display correctly.
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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:38 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:I recognize this type of problem; I have had a similar problem with the percussion clef (= two solid vertical bars) as a (downscaled) cautionary clef.… …
Yes indeed. I still transfer your design for the percussion clef correcting this (kindly provided by you on the old forum) to new files/templates via ‘load library.’ I never could get sufficiently to grips with the Shape Designer plus Clef Designer.
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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:43 pm

Figuring out where to place shapes in relation to the origin has always been a tedious trial-and-error process for me.

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:10 pm

motet wrote:Figuring out where to place shapes in relation to the origin has always been a tedious trial-and-error process for me.
It should not be a “trial-and-error process”, at least not for the vertical positioning of a custom clef.

If you can give us an example, then we might be able to help.

A few hints:

1) Layout calculations are usually easier/simpler if you use small Measurement Units, like Points or EVPUs.
1 Point = 4 EVPUs

2) The height of a staff is 24 Points.

3) Hence the distance between two staff-lines is 6 Points.

4) And the height of a scale step is 3 Points.
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OCTO
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Post by OCTO » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:36 pm

Thank you – I am happy to see there is a fix.
I will give a try at once I am back on Finale.
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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:52 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote: It should not be a “trial-and-error process”, at least not for the vertical positioning of a custom clef.
I've never done a custom clef. But with an articulation or expression, say, it's trial and error to get it positioned correctly for clicking in; perhaps I need to understand where the origin is with respect to the beat or notehead. I also find fine adjustment difficult. I don't quite get how the coordinate boxes work.

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Post by Peter Thomsen » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:30 pm

motet wrote:… But with an articulation or expression, say, it's trial and error to get it positioned correctly for clicking in …
I think that your word “clicking” could be (at least a part of) the explanation.
When you click an item in, then it gets positioned at the “Click Position”, rather than at its “defined, default position”.
As a “safer” solution, define a metatool for the item.
Then, hold down the metatool trigger key on the computer keyboard, and drag across the staff.
When you do so, you get it positioned at its “default, defined position” - with no additional “manual positioning”.

motet wrote:… I also find fine adjustment difficult. I don't quite get how the coordinate boxes work.
What can be confusing, is the fact that there is a positioning in 3 different places:
1) in the Shape Designer,
2) in the item’s definition,
3) in the item’s assignment at the actual position in the layout.
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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:12 am

This came up the other day in another discussion we had and I see now what the confusion was--by clicking I meant while pressing a metatool, not clicking or double-clicking and choosing from the pop-up window of choices. For an articulation, or an expression whose definition doesn't involve "horizontal click position" or "vertical click position." I don't think it matters precisely where you click--it snaps to the nearest note or beat. I don't see any difference between clicking with the metatool key pressed and click-dragging with the metatool pressed, except the latter can be used to make more than one assignment at a time.

If "click position" is specified in the definition, then it seems to position it where you click no matter if a metatool is used or not. With click-drag, it's placed at the corner where you begin.

Can you provide an example of what you mean with one of Finale's default expressions or articulations?

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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:33 am

motet wrote:… If "click position" is specified in the definition, then it seems to position it where you click no matter if a metatool is used or not. With click-drag, it's placed at the corner where you begin.

Can you provide an example of what you mean with one of Finale's default expressions or articulations?
An example:
(the trill symbol: tr)
Open the Default Document (= Maestro Font Default).
Enter a note.
Articulation Tool.
The letter T key triggers the trill articulation.
Hold down the letter T key, and click slightly to the right side of the note.
The articulation gets a “manual positioning” slightly to the right of its “default positioning”.

Select the articulation handle, and hit the Clear key.
The “manual positioning” is cleared, and the trill symbol moves to its “default positioning”.

In the definition of the trill articulation I do not see the words “Click Position”.
I think that the wording “Click Position” is “an expression thingy”.
motet wrote:… With click-drag, it's placed at the corner where you begin …
If I hold down the letter T key, and drag across the staff, then the trill symbol is always placed at its “default positioning” - no matter at which corner I begin.
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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:53 pm

Thanks for the example. I think with articulations, the equivalent of an expression's "click position" is not having "center horizontally" checked for the articulation. I've checked it for the trills in my default template--I don't know why you ever wouldn't want the horizontal position fixed with respect to the note. With it checked, then metatool click and metatool click-drag seem to give the same placement.

I see now what you mean, but, I've got "center horizontally" is checked for all the articulations I use. Of course, it's the handle that's centered, and you can change the offset of the marking itself with respect to the handle, such as with an arpeggio.

Metatool click-dragging with expressions thats use "click position" placement seems to behave differently--one doesn't get "default placement," but rather something related to where you click.

Regardless, I still find getting the positioning right for a custom shape articulation or expression to be a tedious trial-and-error process.

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OCTO
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Post by OCTO » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:31 am

Peter Thomsen wrote:I recognize this type of problem; I have had a similar problem with the percussion clef (= two solid vertical bars) as a (downscaled) cautionary clef.

My first guess would that you - in the Shape Designer - should edit your custom clef, and move it vertically so that the x-axis (where y= 0) goes through the clef glyph at the vertical position of the scale step G.

You will have to adjust the clef’s vertical positioning in the Clef Designer to compensate for your editing in the Shape Designer (Clef Position from Top Staff-line should be -6 steps), but after you have done so, the cautionary clef should display correctly.
It worked perfectly, thank you!
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