Trumpet Piccolo transposition

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OCTO
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Post by OCTO » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:06 pm

Dear friends,
What is the intervall that I need to enter in order to transpose Trumpet Piccolo Bb?
I need it to be a non-tonal transposition (without key).
It is a Staff Style.
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Post by OCTO » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:14 pm

I have discovered, it should be:
-7
1
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Post by motet » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:26 am

It should be -6, 2. If you want to suppress the key signature, use the usual means, not the transposition.

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Post by David Ward » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:42 am

motet wrote:It should be -6, 2. … …
That does seem to do it correctly, confusing as it seems at first.

OCTO are you sure your trumpet player doesn't prefer to have the high trumpet part written in concert pitch? This has been my experience here in the UK, but it may not apply elsewhere.
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Post by OCTO » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:30 am

motet wrote:It should be -6, 2.
Thanks, I will try. It is so confusing.
motet wrote:If you want to suppress the key signature, use the usual means, not the transposition.
What do you mean by that?
The trumpet player uses two instruments, therefore I need transposition in the middle of the piece as a Staff Style.
David Ward wrote:
motet wrote:It should be -6, 2. … …
OCTO are you sure your trumpet player doesn't prefer to have the high trumpet part written in concert pitch? This has been my experience here in the UK, but it may not apply elsewhere.
I am not sure, the trumpet player is from Norway. Indeed there is Piccolo in C, but I am unsure if available, therefore I will try to stick with the regular orchestral instrument. Or it is just matter of notation?
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Post by OCTO » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:34 am

motet wrote:It should be -6, 2.
Actually, it looks weird. It transposes one 6th lower instead of 7th. I get many double accidentals.
Using -7 + 1 does the trick.

Can you confirm?

I use a score without key.
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Post by David Ward » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:40 am

OCTO wrote:… … …Or it is just matter of notation?
It is indeed just a matter of notation.

I've learnt over the years that orchestral trumpet players, at least in much of western Europe, rather like it if all parts are written in C. That allows them to switch back & forth between the instruments of their choice. On paper these may differ from the composer's, but they will anyway. The mouthpiece, the lead-pipe, the bore, the flare and much more, including the individual player's embouchure, will most likely all affect the tone and security at least as much as the length (fundamental pitch) and mechanics (number and type of valves &c) of the individual instrument.
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Post by Gareth Green » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:55 am

OCTO wrote:I am not sure, the trumpet player is from Norway. Indeed there is Piccolo in C, but I am unsure if available, therefore I will try to stick with the regular orchestral instrument. Or it is just matter of notation?
There is indeed such a thing as a picc trumpet in high 'C', but they are rare. The vast majority of standard professional-level picc trumpets are dual pitch instruments, with a choice of lead pipes which switch the instrument from Bb to A. Instruments vary, but many players find that intonation is better/easier in one key than the other, and may find that the 'A' pitch gives better results. So if your player is a competent pro player, there is every possibility that if you choose to notate the part transposed into Bb, he will opt to sight-transpose it up a half-tone and play it on an 'A' picc ...


David is correct; I'm not sure it's true to say that trumpet players in the UK "prefer" to have concert pitch parts, but it is true that whatever pitch of instrument you write for, the player is quite likely to use a different pitched instrument, therefore one might as well write for trumpet in 'C'.
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Post by David Ward » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:56 am

The first bar here has the transposition -6, 2 the second is the same notes in concert pitch. The score is ‘keyless.’
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Post by David Ward » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:11 am

Gareth is a trumpet player, so his advice on this is more reliable than mine (I'm a mere ex-trombonist - too old, no secure embouchure left).
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Post by Gareth Green » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:24 am

"Old trombonists never die, they just slide away … " :wink:
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Post by OCTO » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:47 am

David Ward wrote:The first bar here has the transposition -6, 2 the second is the same notes in concert pitch. The score is ‘keyless.’
I get this:
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Post by David Ward » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:02 pm

How very strange. I get the correct transposition with interval -6, key alter 2 whatever the accidentals.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:35 pm

I know I could have looked this up in the manual, but what's the difference between just -6 and -6, 2?
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Post by OCTO » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:22 pm

David Ward wrote:How very strange. I get the correct transposition with interval -6, key alter 2 whatever the accidentals.
David, what happens if you apply -7, 1?
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Post by David Ward » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:16 pm

OCTO wrote:… … …David, what happens if you apply -7, 1?
This is what I get a) with -6, 2 b) in concert pitch and c) -7, 1

How are you entering the notes? If entered with the QWERTY (or equivalent) keyboard if you enter an F sharp directly in the transposed part you get it as an F double sharp because it has assumed you were entering an E sharp. To get an F sharp directly into the transposed part via QWERTY you enter an F which it interprets as an E to be shown as an F sharp. This is a bit confusing at first, but if you enter the accidentals for the sound rather than for the written pitch you get round that. I think entry from a MIDI keyboard does not have this problem.

To get the results in the screenshot, I copied and pasted from the concert pitch bar into the other two having first set up the transposition in Score Manager.
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Post by motet » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:38 pm

Below I show the same pitches in four different transpositions: concert pitch; Bb trumpet; -6,2; and -7,1. As you can see, -6,2 is what you want. I have selected "keyless" with the key signature tool. -7,1 does something bizarre.

"-6" means to move the notes down six steps on the staff. 2 means to add 2 sharps to the key signature (this is necessary even though the key signature is suppressed and the sharps and flats expressed on each note instead).

If you want to attach your file or a sample of what you're doing, Octo, I'm sure we can find why it's not working for you.

Edit: David beat me to it!
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Post by motet » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:57 pm

Octo's result looks like a transposition of a diminished sixth, which is -5,11. Very strange!
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Post by motet » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:59 pm

Incidentally, it looks like one needs to disable "double bars at key changes" in this situation.

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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:04 pm

So, writing it in concert pitch wouldn't seem such a bad idea?
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Post by motet » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:15 pm

It would be a bad idea if the only reason is a Finale one. I'm sure we can figure out what's going on if he posts his file.

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Post by motet » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:17 pm

Wait--isn't there some new feature with V. 25 in which you can hear the transposed pitch as you enter the notes? Could this have something to do with an erroneous setting there? Minor seventh (which the transposition should be) minus normal Bb trumpet's major second equals diminished sixth? If that's so, then either alter that input setting (I don't have V. 25) or turn the feature off.

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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:28 pm

So, if you write a C major scale starting from c2 (the C above middle C), with -6, 2 transposition you would get a D major scale starting with d2 (the D next to middle C)? Quite straightforward, even if the method needs learning.
If I got it right, that is.
And if there are still issues about it, as it seems to be, why not the simplest and most widely understood way? Concert pitch.
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Post by motet » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:13 pm

That's probably good advice. I've never written for piccolo trumpet, but I do always write for C trumpet. Trumpeters seem to be transposing machines and even if a part is in Bb and they have a Bb trumpet, may choose to play it on a D trumpet or some such.

I'm a (French) horn player and recently started playing trumpet again for fun after decades. What I didn't realize in high school is how hard the trumpet is to play in tune--several notes require throwing the first and/or third valve slides, so I can see how an instrument in a different key might be easier to play in tune depending on the music (Gareth, please correct me if I'm wrong).

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Post by OCTO » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:19 pm

Here is even a standard file I created, it still works the same way.
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