Finale V26 issues

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jazzangeleyes
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Finale Version: V26
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Post by jazzangeleyes » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:12 pm

Hi you all, anyone knows if all the bugs in FInale V26 are going to be solved soon? I expend the update money (an expensive one), to have a much worse Finale than my V25.5 version. I'm doing a big band arrangement and just lost the count on how many bugs I'm finding in the way. This is just not fair at all. They even say you don't need to update layout while writing the chords symbols and that's not true, still having to do so.
Also please, Finale Team, learn what are the correct chord notation symbology (from Barrie Nettles for example), cause you are creating WRONG and AVOID notation in your chord libraries, it should not take that much, there is a clear standard notation for chords. "m" is not correct for minor and "Ma" is not for Major, m should be either "min" or "-", and Ma should be notated as Maj7, Maj9, or the little triangle which substitute Maj7. Also, is not acceptable that you don't have a better spacing design for Alternate bass chords (they take a lot of space! and are not clear), my advice is that you redesign the alternate chords buy putting the slash more down the upper chord, with a little inclination, also, when you write them, they should automatically resize a little smaller. On the same side, is not acceptable that you don't have a practical way to notate a polychord without having to do magics to get it... and this goes on and on with other elements of the software... I'm not asking an Spectrasonics perfect compatibility, or professional sequencer characteristcs, I'm just asking for a functional text (music) editing functions which is "what Finale should be all about" and there is still a long long way to get that point.
I'm sorry and please no ofense, but is so frustrating that you make us to pay 149 AN UPDATE, to have a software that is full of bugs in 2018, and even worse, to use the users (once already paid their for the update), to check and find new bugs. For that price you MUST release an almost perfect working software and if you can't do that, please don't sell it yet. :(

Finale V26.01.706
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Last edited by jazzangeleyes on Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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miker
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Post by miker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 4:31 pm

Please remember that this is a user forum.

To submit a complaint directly, go to finalemusic.com, log into your account, and use the Submit a Request link.
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:14 pm

Why didn't you try the demo version before paying for the update?

By the way, I've been copying and engraving jazz and commercial music for 35 years. Take it from me—there is no "correct" or "standard" chord notation in universal use. The best you can do is make up your preferred chord suffix spelling, put it in your Finale templates, and use that. Never mind what Make Music is offering. At least they are trying to have all variations available so that users can choose for themselves.

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motet
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Post by motet » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:20 pm

jazzangeleyes wrote:They even say you don't need to update layout while writing the chords symbols and that's not true, still having to do so.
If you have Automatic Update Layout turned off (Preferences/Edit) turn it back on. Having it off can make it look like there are bugs.

jazzangeleyes
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Post by jazzangeleyes » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:16 pm

Please remember that this is a user forum.
To submit a complaint directly, go to finalemusic.com, log into your account, and use the Submit a Request link.
Thank you, I know it. Just wanted to share my frustration with what it started as a general user question and see if I''m the only one who needs real and significative improvements in FInale, so let me clarify that this message is more oriented to users than FInale support, as I guess their answer.
Why didn't you try the demo version before paying for the update?
Sorry, my mistake. I didn't doubt for a second that with that update price the soft would go as expected. Will do that the next time.
By the way, I've been copying and engraving jazz and commercial music for 35 years. Take it from me—there is no "correct" or "standard" chord notation in universal use. The best you can do is make up your preferred chord suffix spelling, put it in your Finale templates, and use that. Never mind what Make Music is offering. At least they are trying to have all variations available so that users can choose for themselves.
Please, this is important to clarify. Of course with all due respect to a profession mate (I've been writing for 25 years now and have been taught at Berklee College by very well know composers and arrangers that can easily sume your experience and mine all together, having worked for the greatests). What I'm telling here, is literally taken from their invaluable advices and lessons and we can include really solid thoughts and logics about the chord symbology and notation.
I have read many times arguments like the one you expose and once again I disagree and insist, with all the respect in the world to you. There are universal expressions like "hey yoooo, wazzzz up!" and programs like Word or Pages do not give us that option by default. That something becomes universal does not mean that it is a good option or it is correct and much less should mean that we must begin to justify its use, as if it were something normal. There are some rules that through the study of the different options and very solid justifications, conclude that an "m" can be confused with Mayor depending on what font and size you use or how you write it, that is why it is concluded that it is better to use "min" or a minus "-", acceptable for comfort and space saving. Like "Ma" should not be used to just save a "j", and not to mention the words in other languages that can be created by mistake like "AMa" (in Spanish meaning "Loves"/"Landlady" or "Madame"...little confusing isn't it?) and this goes on and on... it is our responsibility to convey a correct and practical musical spelling for all, taking into account, of course, that the confusing options have sometimes became universal... unfortunately.
If you have Automatic Update Layout turned off (Preferences/Edit) turn it back on
Sure, it is how comes by default and didn't touch it. Anyway, it seems to me like programming issues, I been using Finale since 1997 and learned to identify them (for example, now, when you write a note on a previouly written rest, they both show up, like mounted one on top the other, and once more you have to hit "Update Layout" to stop seen the error and continue writing... like I said, that should not happen in a soft like Finale.

Folks, my intention is not complain anybody in particular, it is simply frustrating that some basic aspects do not improve with the updates, year after year ... Also the improvements are sometimes insignificant and not exactly cheap. Articulations and ties stopping fighting each other, should be something normal in a free update, not a huge novelty. At this pace, in 2030 we will still be manually placing the dynamics with the mouse or trying to get a Garritan instrument to sound something we can use. I'm sorry, but we need more, and if it can not be given, it's fine, I understand and it's ok, but I hope not having to pay 149 dollars or whatever because they have corrected the bugs of V26 in V27. I'm sorry for the harshness, but sometimes it's a bit necessary.
Last edited by jazzangeleyes on Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:20 pm

What I want to know is: why didn't you buy the upgrade through Sweetwater for $119.00?

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jazzangeleyes
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Post by jazzangeleyes » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:24 pm

I did. I'm just speaking generally about prices, not personally. :?
Also, you have to take in account that if you buy it through some dealer, you'll loose the MakeMusic support... or that's what I been told by Sweetwater.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:57 pm

Well, support is sketchy at best, but when you already own a license (unique serial number), that should stay the same, and support should still be available. In order to buy the upgrade, you have to already have a serial number. Maybe somebody can set this question straight as to availability of support.

Anyway, Finale and chords has always been quite generic. The traditional m for minor is standard in most sheet music. Jazz charts have there own set of rules, and even those vary as has been stated earlier. So, delete all the MakeMusic created suffixes and create your own. That solves that problem.

There might be other v26 issues. I am waiting a bit to let the dust settle. The revamped articulation paradigm seems to create its own new set of issues, especially with compatibility with older Finale versions. I hoping they find a fix to the havoc in that area before I upgrade.

Zuill
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miker
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Post by miker » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:28 pm

I bought it through Sweetwater, and both they and Finale helped me straighten out the installation. Something about a code being (mistakenly) one-use only.

No problems, after that. And support still talks to me!
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HaraldS
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Post by HaraldS » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:30 am

jazzangeleyes wrote:Please, this is important to clarify. Of course with all due respect to a profession mate (I've been writing for 25 years now and have been taught at Berklee College by very well know composers and arrangers that can easily sume your experience and mine all together, having worked for the greatests). What I'm telling here, is literally taken from their invaluable advices and lessons and we can include really solid thoughts and logics about the chord symbology and notation.
With equal respect to your education and your teachers, please bear in mind that the world where chord symbols are used is much bigger than the jazz world or what is taught at Berklee. Of course, Berklee has a huge influence on jazz education and thus on the use on chord symbols. As a jazz musician and leader of two Big Bands at Germany I'm absolutely familiar with how chord symbols are/have been used in different countries, decades, by different composers and different publishers. I am absolutely convinced of the existence of solid thoughts and logics about the chord symbology and notation which are valid for certain countries, decades, composers and publishers. And exactly that tells me, that no chord notation system can be universally accepted, because no system can incorporate all traditions, languages and accepted usages.

Just an example:
jazzangeleyes wrote:There are some rules that through the study of the different options and very solid justifications, conclude that an "m" can be confused with Mayor depending on what font and size you use or how you write it, that is why it is concluded that it is better to use "min" or a minus "-", acceptable for comfort and space saving.
The danger of confusion doesn't exist in Germany, where "m" is seen as an abbreviation for "Moll". No danger of confusion with "Mayor" as this word doesn't exist. The situation is similar in lots of other languages. Instead, "min" for minor is commonly unkown, it's only known by jazz musicians with a Berklee-like background. The minus sign has a history of being used for minor chords, diminished 5ths and as a replacement for a flat. Using that, you would only rise the danger of confusion, but not achieve any clarification. Or try to use your suggestions in France, Italy, China or Japan - I doubt, that it would be understood universally. The use of chord symbols in Berklee style has its eligibility, but it's far from being universal, because the musical world is bigger than that.

And concerning Finale - I'm happy that Finale lets us create all chord symbols as they are needed, Berklee-style or other. My complaint would be that it's quite tedious to do so, so everyone is invited to support the Chord symbol suffix enhancements suggestion in the Feature Requests Forum.
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michelp
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Post by michelp » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:02 am

I have added a couple of suggestions to the Feature Requests section (for an overhaul of the Chord Suffix Editor).
FYI :
2 additional requests :
1) a larger window, with percentage views (like in the Graphic Designer : 100%, 200%, etc...)
2) Document Options -> Fonts -> Notation -> Alteration (especially the size) SHOULD NOT have an effect on alterations in the suffixes that use "Prefix with". We should be able to have different sizes between the alteration of the root and the alterations of the suffixes using "Prefix with".

(I have to enter and position these alterations one by one, without using "Prefix with")
Last edited by michelp on Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jazzangeleyes
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Post by jazzangeleyes » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:57 am

Thank you for your thoughts and opinions, that's what I intended and what an interesting conversation!
So, delete all the MakeMusic created suffixes and create your own. That solves that problem.
Thank's Zuill but that's not the problem, sure I have my own chord library with my fonts, notation, etc... I'm speaking here in general, not individually, not about my personal case, it is more about what Finale includes as a default chord symbology and spreads it globally to the world.

On the other hand, "music is an universal language"; I guess you are agree with me with this right? So, consequently, why should or can not its symbology also be universal? What is the difference between a half rest and a chord symbol? Why the half rest is always written the same way? The answer for me is clear: universality, clarity, productivity and optimization. If we had 8 different ways to notate a half rest (and other music symbols), it would make music writing quite useless and applications like Finale, would be almost infinite (in fact, optimized music writing already seems).

With that said, it is logic to think that a a clearly studied and justified symbology, as it was created through the history of the 20th century in the United States, should be promoted for its universalization (especially in western music uses), in favor of greater clarity, understanding and globalization of the musical language, a language that in itself is complicated for many people. I am not a defender of the American (I am not American either), or any particular educational institution, do not take me wrong, I am a practical person who thinks for the benefit of all at the universal level and who defends the musical language as something that should be universal (as it has always been and the reason that allows Finale existence), so that we can all make and play the music of all. For these reasons I believe that Finale should universalize its chord symbols, to American writing standards, which are the most used throughout the history of music, especially modern music.
In my life I have written hundreds of scores with chord symbology for different styles such as jazz, rock, pop, brazil or bso among others, for people of different cultures and different education, chinese, japanese, european,, etc... and I do not remember a single time when a professional musician had just one doubt about what my chord symbology means and I have always used a correct american chord symbology. For me, this is practicality and optimization and I advocate that, in my opinion, and of course respecting all of yours, that I also understand.

There are not so many basic chords to notate, and IMO, would be beneficial for everybody if they were better universalized, as it is indeed, the rest of most musical symbology.

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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:11 pm

I think your call for a more universally accepted chordal notation is understandable given the many different systems currently use. Whether Finale should lead the charge is highly doubtful, however. MM seems to have its hands more than full.

In my opinion, each of these systems is a makeshift affair, each tailored to be a little less cumbersome for a different audience. The old figured bass system was superior in that it showed the bass part and could deal systematically with every possible chordal combination. It was for that reason a universally accepted system. A modern version might use letters (or roman numerals) for the actual bass notes (instead of the roots) and arabic numbers and accidentals for the chords. The chance of such a system being used now would, of course, be nil.
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:52 pm

Chord symbols is the least worry to me with bugs in 26. I would just like to be able to print normally. :cry: I, too, can not believe MM can or should release software with that glaring "bug". WHich, they still say has no solution. No other software I have does that. It only effects Finale 25-26?

MM support is seriously wanting. One of the slowest I have used.
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