percussion notation

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mmike
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Post by mmike » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:44 pm

When I import percussion tracks from a DAW and create percussion staves in Finale, they play back correctly, but the notation is not what I want. I'd like to have the different instruments placed as per the second (notechange) attached example. I can do it, of course, by changing them to standard notation, transposing them to where I want to see them, but then I am adding accidentals (which I can hide), and they won't play back correctly becuse I've in essence changed the instrument to something else. It doesn't really matter too much to me, since I create all playback in a DAW anyway, but I'm curious if ot could not perhaps be done somehow more elegantly. That is, fairly simply, without getting into the rat's nest of percussion maps etc. etc....?
Attachments
perc_test_MIDImport_notatechange.musx
(144 KiB) Downloaded 120 times
perc_test_MIDImport_original.musx
(143.28 KiB) Downloaded 132 times
Finale 3.7 > 27.4.1, GPO5, ASUS laptop, 18.4'' display, Intel Core i7, 32GB RAM, WIN 10 Pro, Cubase


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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:37 pm

Not percussion maps, but the percussion layout determines which instrument goes where. It's not very hard to edit.

mmike
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Post by mmike » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:52 pm

I don't see how the percussion layout (and which one?) relates to the instruments I have used. How does one find out what's what? And how to make changes and apply them to an existing staff?
Finale 3.7 > 27.4.1, GPO5, ASUS laptop, 18.4'' display, Intel Core i7, 32GB RAM, WIN 10 Pro, Cubase

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:25 pm

From the Staff tool, right-click on the handle in the upper-left corner of the staff in question and pick Select Percussion Layout. It will point to what the staff is using. Edit that and change the Staff Position of the instrument(s).

mmike
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Post by mmike » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:09 pm

sorry for being a bit thick here ... but no matter what I edit in the percussion layout, the change of position doesn't seem to be reflected in the staff. I assume I need to know the MIDI note number of each instrument first (to be found with the MIDI Tool ? or?), but that doesn't correspond with the instruments I see listed in the layout.
Finale 3.7 > 27.4.1, GPO5, ASUS laptop, 18.4'' display, Intel Core i7, 32GB RAM, WIN 10 Pro, Cubase

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:30 pm

Ah, sorry. I should have looked at your file first. The reason the notes are yellow is that they're not assigned to any instrument. I see there is a "transpose percussion notes" utility. Perhaps someone will be along who's used it.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:01 am

I can't make heads or tails of either file. If we knew what instruments you want for each staff (a list would help), and on which staff position those instruments should be, that would help. The upper 2 staves are using the Orchestral percussion layout, and the bottom staff is using the Percussion layout. There are 6, 7 and 8 instruments on staves 1, 2 and 3 respectively. Do those numbers reflect the number of sounds each staff should have? if so, what are they to be?

Maybe we need to see the original MIDI file to find out what happened.

Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

mmike
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Post by mmike » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:24 am

never mind the original files, they are too complicated and messy for a test. I enclose new, much simplified, test files - the original MIDI (renamed with a .zip extension), and 2 imported Finale versions- one with standard notation, the other with percussion notation. what I'd like to accomplish is that the percussion notation (and therefore without accidentals) shows the instruments in different positions (while still playing back the correct orginal sounds).
when I try to achieve this in the pecussion layout editor it all goes awry (well, for me anyway) ...
as for positioning -ideally the cymbals (with x-noteheads) should be somewhere around the top line, the snare in the middle, the toms lower
Attachments
perc_test_cym_snare_tom.zip
(850 Bytes) Downloaded 109 times
perc_test_cym_snare_tom_percnotation.musx
(136.08 KiB) Downloaded 119 times
perc_test_cym_snare_tom_standardnotation.musx
(136.02 KiB) Downloaded 122 times
Finale 3.7 > 27.4.1, GPO5, ASUS laptop, 18.4'' display, Intel Core i7, 32GB RAM, WIN 10 Pro, Cubase

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:13 pm

We're still lacking information. I am guessing the pitches you are mentioning are the keyboard keys used to enter the notes. Since the MIDI file plays as all piano for me, I can't hear the percussion sounds you originally entered into the DAW. Since it plays as piano, maybe you used a sound set I don't have available.

Anyway, which sound are you using to create the MIDI file? In Finale, none of the GIfF sets (Orchestral Percussion, Jazz Fusion Drums, Marching Percussion) use the numbers you have associated with the various instruments.

So, we need much more information. Once I know the set that uses those numbers, I might be able to convert that into one of the Garritan sets. Garritan does have Cymbals, Snare and Toms, but uses different samples for the different sets. You have 2 cymbals, but don't say whether they are ride, crash, or something else. You mention the snare roll. I think only the Marching Percussion has the snare roll as a sample. Give us the missing info and maybe this can be untangled.

Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

mmike
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Post by mmike » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:33 pm

all sounds used are via ARIA player from GPO 5 / Basic Orchestra Percussion (which has more drum sounds than GPO 4 or the default Finale Garritan instruments)
however .... if you don't have GPO 5, maybe you can assign ANY cymbals, snares, toms from whatever you have, just to see what happens in terms of then seeing the notation on their respective staves
Finale 3.7 > 27.4.1, GPO5, ASUS laptop, 18.4'' display, Intel Core i7, 32GB RAM, WIN 10 Pro, Cubase

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:09 pm

Since I only have GIfF, this is the best I could do. Also, since you have a different Aria player, this may not play for you. You'll have to reassign the sets I used (Basic Orchestral Percussion for the Cymbals and Snare, and Jazz Fusion for the Toms).

Zuill
Attachments
perc_test_cym_snare_tom_percnotation revised.musx
(136.66 KiB) Downloaded 112 times
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

mmike
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Post by mmike » Tue Nov 27, 2018 5:32 pm

Thanks, that works, of course. But if I try and use the ARIA player and GPO 5 Orchestral Percussion it gets, again, confusing. I think I'll leave it at that for now, unless someone can chime in who can use the same or similar setup (ARIA+GPO 5)
Finale 3.7 > 27.4.1, GPO5, ASUS laptop, 18.4'' display, Intel Core i7, 32GB RAM, WIN 10 Pro, Cubase

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:15 pm

If GPO 5 has all the sounds you need in Orchestral Percussion, then you can use that instead of the Fusion Kit. I don't know.

Do you know how to use the Transpose Percussion Notes utility. Do you know how to create a Percussion Layout? Those are good things to know about.

When MakeMusic originally redesigned the percussion paradigm, it was to make it easy to set all things up to be transportable to other users. However, there are at least 2 glitches in their approach which make it useless. First, if you have a different Aria player version from another user, opening the file wipes out all the instrument assignments in the Aria Player. The second serious problem is that the setup isn't easy to use if you don't know the MIDI numbers assigned to the instruments in the various possible sets. And, if you have GPO5 and I don't, there's no way for me to open your file and hear anything close to what you hear. Basically, if all the instruments are unique to GPO5, then GIfF makes no connection. At least they could have a conversion method by which Finale chooses the closest sounds. However, they didn't think that far ahead. So sad.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

mmike
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Post by mmike » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:41 pm

zuill wrote:Do you know how to use the Transpose Percussion Notes utility
yes, but that doesn't really work, it changes the notes to other instruments (andI never know what's what exactly), but it doesn't change the position on the staff
zuill wrote:Do you know how to create a Percussion Layout
yes, but again complicated because, as you know, you need to know the correct MIDI numbers of the various sets. That whole percussion system seems just awkward in general, certainly if you are trying to work with other people and other sytems. which I actually don't really need, I would just have liked to import a MIDI percussion track from a DAW, and have it play back correctly in Finale, while at the same time being able to change the appearance of the notation to something logical, rather than instruments jumping all over the place. I can fake it (for the purposes of printed correct scores and parts, with playback being unnecessary) but it really should be easier, me thinks ...
Finale 3.7 > 27.4.1, GPO5, ASUS laptop, 18.4'' display, Intel Core i7, 32GB RAM, WIN 10 Pro, Cubase

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