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Cb to B

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Cb to B

Postby bkshepard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:42 am

I have a piece where a section of it is in concert F# major. Bb Trumpets have been simplified to Ab major instead of G# major. There are a bunch of chromatic alterations in this section and I need to have B-natural and E-natural in some spots. Unfortunately, they show up as Cb and Fb respectively. When I attempt to enharmonically respell them with the * key, they change to Dbbb and Gbbb respectively. I can't get them to go to B and F. I seem to recall this coming up before, but couldn't find it. Can someone point me in the right direction. Thanks.

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Re: Cb to B

Postby motet » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:44 am

Try playing with the enharmonic spelling settings and see if that changes the behavior of the * key. Sounds like maybe you have "favor flats" selected.
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Re: Cb to B

Postby bkshepard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:05 am

I have "Use Spelling Tables" selected. I tried changing it to "Use Default Spelling" but that didn't make any difference. I seem to recall from a post awhile back that there was a trick you had to do to make this work, but I couldn't find it searching the forum.
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Re: Cb to B

Postby motet » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:02 am

Maybe "Retranscribe"?
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Re: Cb to B

Postby bkshepard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:01 am

Where is Retranscribe? I'm not seeing it. What does seem to work is transposing the notes by a diminished 2nd.
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Re: Cb to B

Postby michelp » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:05 am

Another idea : the plug-in (to be installed) JW Change Pitches.

jw_change_pitches.jpeg
jw_change_pitches.jpeg (44.49 KiB) Viewed 312 times


Maybe you have to uncheck "Sounding Pitch"

P.S. : Retranscribe is in the Midi/Audio menu.
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Re: Cb to B

Postby HaraldS » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:32 am

bkshepard wrote:I have a piece where a section of it is in concert F# major. Bb Trumpets have been simplified to Ab major instead of G# major. There are a bunch of chromatic alterations in this section and I need to have B-natural and E-natural in some spots. Unfortunately, they show up as Cb and Fb respectively. When I attempt to enharmonically respell them with the * key, they change to Dbbb and Gbbb respectively. I can't get them to go to B and F. I seem to recall this coming up before, but couldn't find it. Can someone point me in the right direction. Thanks.


Short answer: go into Speedy Entry and hit the keys - 9 + for each note.

This could also probably be automated if you have lots of occurences.

A G## in concert pitch would result in a B in the trumpet part, a C## in concert pitch would result in an E natural. So if you want a trumpet B, you'll need a G## in the score. Obviously, you have instead an A natural and a D natural in concert pitch in the part which correctly gives Cb and Fb in the Bb trumpet.

This is due to Finale's internal (and correct) handling of pitches which you could investigate by opening the Edit Frame dialog box. Pitches are identified by a Scale Displacement value and a Lower/Higher value which remain the same when being transposed.
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Re: Cb to B

Postby Peter Thomsen » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:51 am

bkshepard wrote:I have a piece where a section of it is in concert F# major. Bb Trumpets have been simplified to Ab major instead of G# major. There are a bunch of chromatic alterations in this section and I need to have B-natural and E-natural in some spots. Unfortunately, they show up as Cb and Fb respectively. When I attempt to enharmonically respell them with the * key, they change to Dbbb and Gbbb respectively. I can't get them to go to B and F …

For what it is worth, I am unable to duplicate this problem.
I can change Cb to B-natural via the Simple Entry Tool (when the Cb is selected):
1) DownArrow key (moves the note down by a scale step)
2) letter N key (changes the note to B-natural)

Perhaps there is something else going on in the document.
I suggest that you attach a (small) Finale sample document here.
A single staff with a single measure will do.
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Re: Cb to B

Postby bkshepard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:20 pm

Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions! I had tried the JW Pitch Change plugin, but it wouldn't work on those two pitches for some reason. Peter's suggestion of the - key followed by the N key was the process I had used before, but had forgotten. As I mentioned previously, I did find a way to fix it with the transpose function by lowering the pitch a diminished second. Nice to know there are several options.

Best wishes, all!

-Brian
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Re: Cb to B

Postby bkshepard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:04 pm

Just did a little experimenting:
1. If I create a piece in Ab major and (using speedy entry) enter B-natural and E-natural, they show as Cb and Fb respectively. Using the 9 key in speedy easily flips them to B- and E-natural.
2. If I create a piece in F# major, but with a Bb trumpet part, the transposed trumpet is in Ab Major. This time when I enter B-natural and E-natural in the transposed part, they show as Cb and Fb respectively, but the 9 key flips them to Dbbb and Gbbb instead of B- and E-natural.
3. If I turn Display at Concert Pitch on and enter the sounding pitches of A- and D-natural and then switch to the transposed version, I get the same result as #2.

The issue appears to be related to the fact that it is a transposing part. What's happening is that in the original key of F# major, I have a D-major chord. For the trumpet transposition to the key of Ab major, that shows up as an Fb-major chord. I realize that is technically correct. However, given that the chord is not part of a progression, it makes more sense to simply write it as an E-major chord instead., but Finale wants to force me into either an Fb-major or Gbbb-major chord. BTW, I tried this in both f25.5 and f26 with the same result.
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Re: Cb to B

Postby zuill » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:43 pm

For this situation, you might want to consider the feature in the NoteMover Tool designed for this. It is called Search and Replace. The option I used was Down a Diminished 2nd for the transposition. The Enharmonic option yields the same result as in your other approaches.

With this Tool, you can automatically do all of a certain note in any octave, or allow it to take you through the document one by one, which is semi-automatic.

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Re: Cb to B

Postby bkshepard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:50 pm

Wow, I did not know about that option. I will give it a try later when I'm back at my home computer. Thanks for the tip!
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Re: Cb to B

Postby Peter Thomsen » Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:00 pm

1) What input device are you using? - mouse? - computer keyboard? - MIDI keyboard?

2) What happens if you - instead of the command Retranscribe - use the command Respell Notes?
(Utilities menu > Respell Notes)

3) If I understand you correctly, the staff transposition is set to Bb Transposition, with “Simplify Key” selected, right?
BbTransposition.jpg
BbTransposition.jpg (98.42 KiB) Viewed 241 times



What happens if you instead use an A# Transposition, with “Simplify Key” de-selected?
A#Transposition.jpg
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Re: Cb to B

Postby bkshepard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:17 pm

Hi Peter, to answer your specific questions...
1. I'm using a MIDI keyboard for pitch input
2. I tried Respell Notes but it didn't have any affect on those pitches
3. Yes, I'm using the Bb transposition with simplify selected. When I get home, I'll try as you suggested and report.

Thank you for the suggestions.

-Brian
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Re: Cb to B

Postby motet » Fri Mar 08, 2019 8:52 pm

Peter, I think A# transposition should be 2,-10; not 3,-10 (and simplify key shouldn't matter). Alas, it seems to make no difference when flipping with the enharmonic flip keys.

Transposing down a diminished second seems like the way to go. I think you can program one of the number keys 6-9 to do this, which should make it fairly quick to do, selecting the note and pressing the key,
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Re: Cb to B

Postby bkshepard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:40 pm

Peter's suggestion of 3, -10 was to change it from F# to the simplified key of Ab instead of G#. Unfortunately, the behavior of the 9 key for enharmonic shifting remains the same as before.
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Re: Cb to B

Postby bkshepard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:49 pm

zuill wrote:For this situation, you might want to consider the feature in the NoteMover Tool designed for this. It is called Search and Replace. The option I used was Down an Augmented 2nd for the transposition. The Enharmonic option yields the same result as in your other approaches.

With this Tool, you can automatically do all of a certain note in any octave, or allow it to take you through the document one by one, which is semi-automatic.

Zuill

I may be doing something wrong, but I couldn't get this to work.
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Re: Cb to B

Postby motet » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:34 pm

The transposition should be down a diminished 2nd (as I think you already discovered), not an augmented second. (A diminished 2nd is enharmonically equivalent to a unison; you don't want to change the pitch, only respell it.)

bkshepard wrote:Peter's suggestion of 3, -10 was to change it from F# to the simplified key of Ab instead of G#. Unfortunately, the behavior of the 9 key for enharmonic shifting remains the same as before.


3,-10 will give wrong results. It's 2,-10, as I said.
Last edited by motet on Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cb to B

Postby Peter Thomsen » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:44 pm

Oops! sorry!

motet is right - for A# Transposition the Interval is 2 scale steps (= a third):
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Re: Cb to B

Postby bkshepard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:28 pm

Hmmm, when I create the original key of F# Major and do a transposition of either 2, -10 (G# Major) or 3, -10 (Ab Major), I get a key signature of Ab Major in both cases--and that's with simplify key unselected in both cases.
Last edited by bkshepard on Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cb to B

Postby motet » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:36 pm

bkshepard wrote:Peter's suggestion of 3, -10 was to change it from F# to the simplified key of Ab instead of G#. Unfortunately, the behavior of the 9 key for enharmonic shifting remains the same as before.


By the way, all that Simplify Key does is, whenever there are more than six sharps or flats, change it to a simpler enharmonic key. By checking Simplify Key in B-flat transposition, you've already done that. The A# transposition was worth trying, but it appears they're identical by virtue of Simplify Key.

(If there six or fewer sharps or flats, Simplify Key does nothing, so E major concert for example winds up as F# major (six sharps) for B-flat instruments. In that case, using A-sharp transposition instead results in G-flat major (six flats), which is a fairly common request in this forum.)
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Re: Cb to B

Postby bkshepard » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:43 pm

Yeah, don't think I want to be around when the trumpets see the key of G# Major! :D
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Re: Cb to B

Postby zuill » Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:10 am

motet wrote:The transposition should be down a diminished 2nd (as I think you already discovered), not an augmented second. (A diminished 2nd is enharmonically equivalent to a unison; you don't want to change the pitch, only respell it.)


Oops. I meant a Diminished 2nd. I fixed my post. Sorry.

To get the Search and Replace to work, after setting it up, there is now the word Search on the Menu bar next to Note Mover. Click on Search and then you have the rest of the options.

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