Composing in Finale....Is there a more satisfying feeling?

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Anders Hedelin
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:05 pm

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Hector Pascal
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Post by Hector Pascal » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:48 pm

Taking Mozart, just as an example of a pre-computer composer who, I believe, was reputed to have been rather fluent in getting his notes down, I would love to know if, given the technology, he would have been a power user of Finale 26, and whether he would have preferred simple or speedy note entry, lol ;)

He'd have probably been a regular here, I think. Or maybe not..., We'll never know...

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Djard
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Post by Djard » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:19 am

Back in the... well, way back when, we used the five-nibbed pen and, as a luxury, used India ink. Most often, the last stroke...darn last stroke, was uneven; and the chance of going over the lines evenly was as good as everyone showing up for rehearsal on time.

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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:57 pm

Just to be clear: Finale is a tool for notating music, right? Not composing, notating.

Notating is not composing, notating is jotting down the result of composing. Finale is the substitute for the pencil and paper. And in some respects rather a poor substitute, in my experience. With a pencil (not too hard, not too much graphite) and an eraser I could carry out endless corrections, whereas Finale tends to, nay: will corrupt a document when I delete and reenter notes, staves and measures too often. And, also in my experience, it was less misfortunate having to throw away a single sheet of paper because it wore thin from frequent erasures and start over, than to delete a digital document and having to start all over.

How do you guys and gals define 'composing in Finale', I wonder?
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:20 pm

No, Finale is a tool for composing... like my pencil and paper are, like my graduate degree in composition is, like me years and years of hard work.
They're all part and parcel of the process.

For me, Finale is not only a tool for engraving.

Like a pencil and paper are tools for composition, not for engraving.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:44 pm

Jay Emmes wrote:Just to be clear: Finale is a tool for notating music, right? Not composing, notating.
Why so rigid?
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:09 pm

Jay Emmes, if you are implying that your music is in any way 'better' than the one composed with Finale, it would be interesting to listen to some of your compositions.
Are they available on the net? Youtube? Soundcloud?
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Post by bvstudios » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:43 am

Finale is a tool, and that is actually the best thing I can call it.

Because for me it has become the #1 best tool I use to get what I hear in my head onto "paper". I've never had a file corrupt from too many edits (though I do practice "save early, save often"), even after working on one piece for up to five or six hours unbroken.

I can test out harmonies, I can experiment with dynamics (and change them at will if needs be), I can add or subtract value (instruments) from a piece, and best of all, I can actually hear what I am doing. Best of all, I can play my work for someone else, client or family member(long-suffering) and get their opinion of what I have done...

That makes it valuable to me.
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Post by Djard » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:41 am

I see Finale as many things, not only a notation tool but also an instrument of confirmation that what you hear in the inner ear is what you are digitally capturing; and like any music instrument, listening to the notes you enter can lead to some creative phrases. So yes, I think Finale can also be a tool for composing, though less so than for engraving.

I apologize for being skeptical, but I struggle to believe anyone is able to write and perform multiple edits without suffering at least one of the very many bugs in Finale. I experience no problems writing an orchestral score but am yet to finish a flamenco or classical guitar piece without running into a time-consuming software-related obstacle.

Flamenco and classical guitar are written on one staff system, and the software loathes polyphonic notation. I am not complaining...just sayin'

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Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:32 am

In what way does Finale 'loath' polyphonic notation? This example by Sor seems quite easy to notate fx, or were you thinking of something with a more advanced polyphony? I'm just curious.
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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:57 am

Anders Hedelin wrote:Jay Emmes, if you are implying that your music is in any way 'better' than the one composed with Finale, it would be interesting to listen to some of your compositions.
Are they available on the net? Youtube? Soundcloud?
Where do you read what you suggest I was implying?

____________________


MakeMusic in a lengthy mail exchange stated that Finale is a tool for notating music and is not suited for multiple corrections, which will very likely corrupt a document, as I have - much to my regret - witnessed in every orchestral score to date. Finale further suggested that composers should write on paper first and work out in Finale, rather than start working in Finale.
Chamber music scores tend to behave fairly well, but anything with more than fifteen staves or so invariably turns corrupted. Finale is great as a pencil, not so much as an eraser.

The process of composing is performed in your head, not on the paper or the screen. Strictly speaking, you don’t even have to write down what you compose. Notation only serves to communicate the composition to others (performers, scholars). Georg Friedrich Händel, Bedřich Smetana and Frederick Delius, for example, were able to compose being blind yet not able to draw a note on paper. Composers carrying notebooks around do so to jot down what they composed, not to start composing when they draw the notebook.

Sure, Finale can play back to you what you have written so far, but frankly, what have you been writing when you need to hear what you have written?
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Post by Bill Reed » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:34 pm

>MakeMusic in a lengthy mail exchange stated that Finale is a tool for notating music

Personalty, I think MakeMusic has no clue what Finale is...
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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:56 pm

FWIW I have a few very large Finale files (many staves, thousands of bars etc) which have subsequently had major edits, including adding and removing whole sections of two or three hundred bars (all worked out on paper first). Maybe I'm just lucky, but not one of these files so far seems to have become corrupted.

I have come to realize that Finale playback can be very helpful when explaining things to the non-musicians with whom I often collaborate. Since my piano playing is dire and my singing horrible this is probably more useful than bashing and yelling through a draft vocal score. For myself, my ‘inner ear’ (derived as it is from a mixture of experience and imagination) is perhaps more reliable than Finale.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:30 pm

David Ward wrote:I have come to realize that Finale playback can be very helpful when explaining things to the non-musicians with whom I often collaborate.
...
For myself, my ‘inner ear’ (derived as it is from a mixture of experience and imagination) is perhaps more reliable than Finale.
I can but agree on both points.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Jul 19, 2019 6:45 pm

The relation between 'inner ear' and actual hearing is quite complex when it comes to composing, I would think.
Despite his witnessed excellent ear for music Bartok preferred to compose at the piano. For example.
Why? Because he was lazy? (I wouldn't think so.) Perhaps he wanted to focus on other things that were more important to him in his work. Perhaps he just felt more "at home with the music" at the piano, being a brilliant pianist himself.
For my part, I prefer the neutrality of the piano. It is what it is and doesn't fake ugly string sounds. Not to speak of voices,
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motet
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Post by motet » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:40 pm

Stravinsky also composed at the piano, as did, I suspect, a great many others.

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Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:57 pm

motet wrote:Stravinsky also composed at the piano …
Indeed!

Stravinsky admitted that he got inspiration from the keys of the piano.

The strings parts in « Le sacre du printemps » (The Rite of Spring) are quite difficult and sometimes awkward, but they fit well in the hands when played on a piano.
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:49 pm

Here's a description of the composition of the Shostakovich "Festive Overture":
https://books.google.com/books?id=p_Vxl ... re&f=false

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Post by MikeHalloran » Sat Jul 20, 2019 3:29 am

bvstudios wrote:Finale is a tool, and that is actually the best thing I can call it.
...
That makes it valuable to me.
Exactly!
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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Sat Jul 20, 2019 11:57 pm

Okay, I understand that we are actually speaking of different things here.

Some of you need to hear what you wrote, be it on a piano or by Finale's playback. Not to compose, but to check what you have composed. As I said before, composing takes place before there is anything to write down. In order to write down a note (pitch, duration, dynamic, timbre), you have to come up with a note. Coming up with a note functional to the composition as a whole, that is composing.

It somewhat bewilders me, this need to check what you compose, because it suggests that composing for you is serendipitous ("will it sound well what I write and will it go well with what I'm going to write further on?"). What made you write down that specific note in the first place when you have to verify if it will fit in with what you want the eventual composition to be? Will the intended end result change when you are surprised (in a positive or negative way) by hearing back something you didn't expect? In other words, will the ear change what you initially envisioned? Is there an envisioning of a whole composition when you write down your first note and -if so- to what extend is that envisioning detailed? Doesn't the limitation of Finales and third parties samples exclude quite a lot of musical language and techniques, because you will never be able to hear them play back? Will you avoid writing what you can't check? Will you change what you wanted to write because it doesn't sound so well in Finale, e.g. if you think saxophones in Finale sound horribly, will you therefor not use saxophones in your compositions?

I have many more questions, but I doubt whether any will be answered anyhow. Most of my colleagues are very shy to allow a peek in the kitchen, so to speak.

Please don't understand me wrong, none of my questions have any intention of denigration to whatever degree, I'm merely curious why so many rely on a piano or other means of playback to be confident of what they write, or even need to produce a sound before they will write down anything.

___________________

On a side note, to answer the question in the topics title: the most satisfying feeling (as far as composing is concerned) is to complete a composition to satisfaction, regardless whether that's on paper or in Finale.
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Post by bvstudios » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:45 am

Perhaps some of us are getting a little confused as to the definition of the word "compose", here. It seems (and if I'm wrong, by all means let me know) that some folks consider "composing" to be an internal act and "notating" to be something of an external followup, thus separating the two terms.

Websters is pretty definitive about "Compose":- "to formulate and write (a piece of music)" -https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/compose

This definition works for me and that's how I view composing. I formulate (hear it in my head), then write (put down on some sort of paper) a piece of music.

Similarly, Websters says this about "notation":- "the act, process, method, or an instance of representing by a system or set of marks, signs, figures, or characters." -https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/notation

To me, they are but two halves of a whole.


Or am I missing the boat?
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Post by motet » Sun Jul 21, 2019 3:48 am

It's great, Jay, if you can, like the famous Mozart story, conceive of a piece entirely in your head, only writing out the orchestra parts one at a time when it comes time to play it. Beethoven was forced to conceive his later music entirely in his head. But for every one of you there are probably a hundred excellent composers who work things out by listening and rewriting. As has been said, Stravinsky composed at the piano. Leonard Bernstein did. I can almost guarantee Gershwin did.

I'm convinced that actually listening to music engages different parts of the brain from imagining it, even for those gifted enough to hear a complete piece in their head. Why did Mahler and Bruckner rewrite their symphonies even after publication (much to the confusion of modern-day performers confronted with multiple versions)? Listen to some Beatles outtakes some time and see how they refined some of their songs after trying them out. Probably much pop music is composed by sitting down with piano or guitar and experimenting.

I doubt anyone sits down to Finale to write music without at least some germ of an idea, so you can probably stop being bewildered by that. The technology is a tool, like people have said. There's no shame in using modern music tools, just as there's no shame in using an electric saw or pneumatic hammer.

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Post by Djard » Sun Jul 21, 2019 4:52 am

No doubt that composing is almost entirely performed in the prefrontal cortex (except for pleasant accidents); but maybe we can add Finale as a dynamic that also guides the composer and thus participates in composing: an inversion of, say, a diminished 7th chord accompanying a major 7th interval in a vocal passing note may or may not be complimentary. Playback of the part in Finale can direct the composer to make a change. Would Finale thus qualify as assistant composer?

I doubt many arrangers can hear the effect of all chordal progressions on melodies.

And is writing a bass line by following the chord progression (guided by knowledge of chord construction), without needing to hear the melody, an act of composing? Of course it is.

The polyphonic sample by Fernando Sor that was posted above excludes articulations that are inherent in classical guitar notation. Attached is an example of what Finale does not like. Flamenco guitar solos, if scored correctly (usually with alternating time signatures), are even more problematic in Finale, the files almost certain to become corrupted with editing.

How others never or rarely experience file corruption is an enviable mystery to me.

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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:10 am

Impressive sample of guitar notation, Djard! Of course this is quite beyond me, not being a guitarist myself, so I couldn't even guess at which elements are causing the corruption. (I'm quite certain that it's not the polyphony in itself, or at least not only.)
Do you remember at what stage in your work process the file was corrupted?
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Djard » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:06 pm

I think even Sherlock Holmes would have difficulty detecting when the corruption occurs (often involving the associated library file), since each piece I write has a different workflow. When writing for an ensemble, I encounter no problems, even if for 20 instruments on 50 pages. Only when writing for flamenco or classical guitar do I experience problems, such as a need to use Windows Task Manager to close Finale when it stops responding, an ossia disappears, or an expression like rall. stops working in playback.

Because I also work as a clinician, and do not get an opportunity to write music regularly, I have been making notes of workarounds, thanks in great part to the kind help of folks at this forum. As a result, over the years, I have compiled my own user's guide (over 900 pages). Below is a list of what is in the "Troubleshooting" section. I admit that many of the problems were probably my own doing: I am still a bit uncertain what to do when an instrument ceases to play back: I temporarily change the instrument in Score Manager, play a few bars then switch back. If that fails, I switch between MIDI and VST and get VST Banks & Effects to enable a device in Score Manager.

TROUBLESHOOTING
• 8va Playback
• Accelerando
• All Purpose Fix
• Anacrusis (Cannot Delete)
• Arpeggiated Chord Selection Fails
• Arrow Changes Direction
• Articulation Delete Fails
• Articulation Disfigured
• Articulation Tool Stopped Working
• Artifact (Audio)
• Audio Lost (see "Playback Sound Lost")
• Bar Lines Scatter
• Blank Page Delete
• Cannot Delete File Message
• Cannot Open File for AutoSave
• Change Instrument Fix
• Chord & Suffix (Space Between)
• Chord Fretboard Playback (Loss)
• Chord Fretboard Playback (Tone)
• Chord Name Squeezed
• Chord Name with Accidental
• Chords Can't Be Dragged
• Chord Suffix (Font Size)
• Chord Suffix (Character Spacing)
• Color of Layers Lost (see "Layer Colors Lost")
• Corrupt File
• Corrupt Library File
• Crash/Freeze
• Crescendo Playback Fails
• Cursor Grayed
• Custom Line Space Widened
• Dashed Group Staff Line
• Diminuendo
• Document Recovery After Crash
• Drum Line Notation
• Dynamics Fail in Playback
• Dynamics Inconsistent
• Erase Notation & Symbols
• Exit Bug
• Export to Audio File Issue
• Expression Assigned Incorrectly
• Expression Delete Fails
• Expression Placement
• Expression Placement (Ensemble)
• Expression Playback Failure
• Expression Selection
• Expression Tool Stopped Working
• Expression Undelete Fail
• Expressions Scatter
• Extract Parts Tempo Issue
• Feature Frozen
• Fermata Spacing
• File Recovery After Crash
• Finale Hangs
• Fingering Shifts
• Fonts (Load)
• Fretboard (see "Chord Fretboard Playback")
• Glissando Delete
• Glissando Frames Enlarge
• Glissando Playback
• Graphic Image Lost
• Graphic Image Lost (Delete)
• Guitar Bend Arrowheads
• Guitar Bend Points Backwards
• Guitar Bend Playback Lost
• Hairpins Playback Fail
• Hidden (Unwanted) Notes
• Human Playback Warning
• Hyphen in Lyrics
• Icons Too Small
• Incorporate MIDI Data
• Insert Measure Fails
• Installation Problems
• Instrument Playback Lost
• Instrument Range (see "Range")
• Instruments Change to Piano
• Layer Colors Lost
• Layers Toggle
• Library File Causes Crash
• Library File Corrupted
• Library File Duplicates
• Lyric Font Size
• Lyric Fragment
• Lyric Punctuation Misplaced
• Lyrics
• Lyrics Collide with Bar Lines
• Lyrics for Oohs
• Lyric Word Extension
• Measure Number Correction
• Measure Number Missing
• Measure Numbers (see "Numbering...")
• Measures in Layout
• MIDI Channel Sharing Error Message
• Mixer Short of Channels
• Mordent Fails In Playback
• Mordents Added in Playback
• Mute & Tempo Distortion
• Name of Instrument Missing
• Notation Drifts
• Notehead (Fails to Respond)
• NotePad (Finale)
• Notes Furtively Added
• Notes Disappeared
• Note Shape Raised
• Not Responding
• Numbering Measures
• Ornaments Added Automatically
• Ossia Disappears
• Overlapping Noteheads
• Page Delete
• Page(s) Lost
• PDF File Errors
• PDF File Saving
• PDF Print Errors
• Pedal Sustain Release Fails
• Playback Artifact
• Playback Continues After Fin
• Playback Drags at End
• Playback Failure
• Playback Incomplete
• Playback Intermittently Broken
• Playback of Expression Fails
• Playback of Instrumnent Weak
• Playback of Note Failure
• Playback of Note Flat
• Playback Pitch Incorrect
• Playback Scroll Lost
• Playback Sound Lost
• Playback Vol. Inconsistent
• Print Failure
• Rallentando Fails
• Rall. Locks to 1st Beat
• Range (Instrument)
• Range of Guitar Correction
• Reverb (Attenuate)
• Reverb (Default)
• Ritardaando
• Rit. Locks to 1st Beat
• Save Document Fails
• Saved WAV File Lost
• Scrolling Playback Bar Lost
• Shutdown Bug
• Slur Curve
• Slur Tool Not Responding
• SmartShape Palette Disappears
• Sound Artifact
• Sound Lost (see "Playback Sound Lost")
• Space Between Groups of Notes
• Space between Measures Lost
• Speedy Entry (Note Inaccessible)
• Staff Alignment Fails
• Staff Jumps (After text)
• Staff Spacing
• Tempo Alteration Erratic
• Tempo Drags at End (see "Playback Drags at End")
• Tempo Mark Locks to 1st Beat
• Staff Name Missing
• Threes Displaced in Print
• Tie Curve
• Tie Disconnected
• Tied Unison Notes Play
• Tie Flip
• Tie Flip Jumps
• Tie Lost
• Tie Skewed
• Ties/Slurs
• Ties Squeezed
• Time Signature Duplicated
• Toolbars Scatter
• Tools Stop Working
• Trill Playback
• Tuplet Definition Disappears
• Tuplet Numbers Offset
• Tuplet Number Not Centered
• Tuplet on Last Beat of Measure
• Tuplets
• Tuplets (Compound)
• Undo Lost
• Underline in Lyrics
• View of Score Limited
• Vibrato Automatic
• Vibrato Excessive
• Volume Inconsistent
• Volume Lost (Playback)
• Volume Weak

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