Chords

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miker
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Post by miker » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:35 pm

Is A(add9) the same as A+9? But it's different from A9, right?

I have got to learn more theory...
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at8ax
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Post by at8ax » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:19 pm

There are two issues. One is saying what you mean, and the other is preventing players from misinterpreting what you mean.

Many of us see a 9 and assume all lower chord tones are present. A(add 9) is often used to mean A B C# E with no G or G# included; I'd go with A(add 2) in this circumstance, but I'm nerdy.

A+9 is confusing. Is it a dominant chord with an augmented 9th?, wonders the player. An augmented A triad with a B? I'd avoid this.

A9 is A C# E G B, plain and simple.

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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:24 pm

A9 is A, C#, E, G and B. A add 9 is A, C#, E and B.

I don't recall seeing A+9. I don't use it. But I suppose (A add 9) it could be written out that way.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:27 pm

I'd go with A(add 2) in this circumstance, ...
That would not be correct IMHO. A add 2 A, B, C# and E.
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Post by zuill » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:09 pm

A+7 is one way of writing a dominant 7th with an augmented 5th: A C# E# G. So, A+9 would add the 9th to that: A C# E# G B.

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Post by bkshepard » Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:33 pm

zuill wrote:A+7 is one way of writing a dominant 7th with an augmented 5th: A C# E# G. So, A+9 would add the 9th to that: A C# E# G B.

Zuill
For clarity, I usually see that chord written as A7(#5) or A9(#5). It's similar to the way people write the half-diminished chord as Amin7(b5).

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Post by zuill » Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:02 am

Those are accepted options. For me, I go for less real Estate. A+7 works just fine. I've never had a problem reading it, and I've not had a problem with readers reading it. A7(#5) takes up twice the space. My humble opinion. It must have some legitimacy, since Finale has it as an option in the chord library. However, I don't agree with many of the choices there. But somebody else must be using it.

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Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:36 pm

I don't agree with many of the choices there.
One of the problems with writing chords is there is no ONE correct way. The same chord can be spelled several ways.
Personally I rarely use + for augmented chords but I see it in jazz charts by other folks.
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Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:49 pm

A+9 would add the 9th to that: A C# E# G B.
... or A, C#, F, G and B :D
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Post by zuill » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:09 pm

I've seen +7 or 7+5 in the Real Book for a dominant 7th chord with an augmented 5th. In other places, 7(#5) is found. I try to avoid eye strain, so limiting the number of characters is my approach, when possible. That is not always the case, as clarity often requires a bit more.

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Post by miker » Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:56 pm

I know a 7 chord: C E G Bb
I know a Maj7: C E G B
I know a min7: C Eb G Bb

What is a dominant 7?
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Post by zuill » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:48 pm

Same as 7th chord. The word Dominant refers to the 5th note of the scale. In C major, the V7 chord is GBDF, which is written G7. Because it is the only chord of that structure found naturally in the major scale, it has been known as the Dominant 7th chord, regardless of its relationship to the key. As you get more technical, theory-wise, you can be more specific when the Dominant type chord appears on other notes. D7 in C would be known as the Dominant of the Dominant, or V7/V. That's a Secondary Dominant. However, for purposes of common usage, that isn't necessary to notate. In C, D7 is DF#AC, regardless of how you want to perceive the function. It's no wonder many first year college music majors change to another major, as music theory weeds out the less serious music students.

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Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:06 pm

If you just write C7 , A7, Bb7, etc it is generally understood to be the dominant 7 chord.
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Post by HaraldS » Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:42 pm

Yes, the plus sign is very often used for #5. I would recommend to use #5 instead, because there's no doubt about what to do. Students could figure it out by themselves easily.

To answer the initial question on A+9, it should be A9(#5) preferrably, in my opinion. But whether the + really means a #5 can only be found out by analyzing the context.
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Post by at8ax » Tue Aug 06, 2019 12:04 am

The original question was whether the plus sign + could replace the word "add" in a chord symbol, wasn't it? Or have I been misunderstanding this from the get-go? (and hats off to the person who read my comment about A(add 2) = A, B, C#, E, and corrected it that A(add 2) = A, B, C#, E)

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Post by zuill » Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:14 am

Okay. Here's a reply to Mike's original post:

A(add9) = A C# E B OR A B C# E (Voicing will determine where the 9th goes)

A+9 = A C# E# G B

A9 = A C# E G B

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Post by motet » Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:23 am

zuill wrote:It's no wonder many first year college music majors change to another major, as music theory weeds out the less serious music students.
I got a music degree, and never learned a thing about chord symbols (aside from figured bass). Are they from the jazz/pop world? From a point of view of not knowing anything about it, it all seems rather ad hoc.

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Post by zuill » Tue Aug 06, 2019 4:12 am

In the post you are quoting, I was referring to classical harmonic analysis. I, IV, V, V7, V7/V etc. was how we learned it. The letter chord symbols I learned from Pop and Jazz sheet music (more from pop and standards). However, the concepts are much the same.

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Post by David Ward » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:03 am

motet wrote:I got a music degree, and never learned a thing about chord symbols (aside from figured bass). Are they from the jazz/pop world? From a point of view of not knowing anything about it, it all seems rather ad hoc.
I sometimes feel much the same. Back in the late 1960s and early 1970s I did some work to earn a crust on the edge of the pop/rock/folk world and so encountered chord symbols. Unless the harmony was rather simple they seemed to me to be arithmetical and convoluted. However, very many people rely upon them on a daily basis, so they clearly work.
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Post by oldmkvi » Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:36 am

Chords, chord symbols and harmony theory seem abstract because they aren't associated with how they Sound and how they work.
Dan Haerly had a great book on Jazz harmony and scales , with proper voicings, extensions and Chord Symbol Notation.
Learn a few tunes and see how the chords actually sound in context.
I learned a LOT from Thad Jones Scores.
BTW, Thad would write A9+ for A9 augmented.
A+ is A Augmented Triad,
He saved the +9 for Raised 9th Dominant 7th Chords, A7+9.
Chord Symbols are today's Figured Bass.

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Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:19 pm

A(add9) = A C# E B OR A B C# E (Voicing will determine where the 9th goes)
I only partly agree....... :wink:

Aadd9 is A, C#, E and B

A, B, C# and E is Aadd2

Both chords contain the same notes, but the added notes belong to different octaves which are the ninth and the second notes in the scale. You can also have Aadd11, A,C#, E and D. The eleventh note in the scale. A, C#, D, and E is not an Aadd11 chord either. That is an Aadd4.
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Post by zuill » Tue Aug 06, 2019 2:43 pm

In advanced voicing, 7ths or 9ths aren't always above. For example, I can divide a 9th chord between the hands with the Root in the L.H., then the 7th, 9th 3rd and 5th in the R.H., in that order. Voicing is dependent on good voice leading, which puts the upper notes of chords in various inversions. So, an A9 could have: L.H. A, then R.H. G B C# E.

Add 9 doesn't always mean 9th on top. I do agree that add 9 and add 2 are very much the same. It would be good if one can force a person to know that add 9 would be on top.

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Post by ebiggs1 » Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:28 pm

Add 9 doesn't always mean 9th on top.
Yes it does. There is no other way to say it. In theory Aadd 9 will always mean the next octave 9th note. That isn't debatable if you know theory at all.
Now as a piano player you may not play it that way. That is your interpretation (voicing) but you just turned it into an Aadd2 chord. As a composer the only way to specify that specific and wanted chord is Aadd9.
I do agree that add 9 and add 2 are very much the same.
I don't. The don't even sound the same.

A 7th chord is slightly different since the 7th note is still in the octave.
A7 is A, C#, E and G. You can play it G, A, C# and E but you just did an inversion.
You can invert any chord. Technically an A add has four different tones, and thus has four different positions: Root and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd inversions. You voice the chord so that each of the different tones appears as the lowest tone so you'll create each of the four possible chord positions. If you play A, B, C#, G and E you did not invert anything. You played an Aadd2 chord. (assuming we are playing the 7th or not)
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:37 pm

Just to give an illustration:
Chords.jpg
I'm not very used to chord symbols, but I have it from the horse's mouth that this chord could be called A9+5. As in the figured bass below, the spelling of the chord symbol doesn't change with the voicing.
(My experience is that music theory is hateful only when not made understandable.)
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Post by ebiggs1 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:04 am

What I explained is how you spell the chord. If you are a composer and want a certain chord and sound that is what you would write. Your example of the two chords would not sound the same.
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