Default vertical separation - stacked articulations

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Gareth Green
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Post by Gareth Green » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:15 pm

I'm finding that when I use stacked articulations the vertical distance between them is greater than I would prefer. I have searched this forum and the manuals, but I cannot find any reference to being able to change this default distance. With some combinations of articulations it's possible to substitute a ready-made "all-in-one" combined articulation (staccato/accent, eg.) which looks better. But this doesn't apply to all combinations. Specifically, In my current project I'm using an accent with a fermata above it. The stacked fermata is higher than I would like, but at present I seem to have no alternative but to manually adjust each one.

Any ideas, please?

TIA,

Gareth
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:34 pm

In the Articulation Designer for the fermata, there is a setting called "Distance from Entry". Reducing that moves the fermata closer to the accent.

Will that work? Maybe a better question would be "Does it work on all instances of this combination?".
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:45 pm

But that would move the fermata closer to the note in stand-alone usage, no?

Gareth Green
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Post by Gareth Green » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:56 pm

It does work - sort of; but as Motet predicted, it moves the fermata closer to the note when used without another articulation. It's only a problem with notes outside the stave or on leger lines, because the default positioning avoids the stave anyway. I guess I'm going to have to engage in some trial and error until I find an acceptable compromise distance.

If there's really no other option on this, then I think a feature request is in order for a user-adjustable default distance for stacking articulations.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:13 pm

You might want to experiment with the JW Change plugin. It might save some time in fine tuning the spacing. Still takes manual application, but once you find the number(s) that work(s), it might prove useful.

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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:19 pm

motet wrote:But that would move the fermata closer to the note in stand-alone usage, no?
No. I mean yes. I mean you're right.

What is the use of this setting, then? The designer still has the "Handle Position" settings which were always meant to move the articulation relative to the notehead. I guess Gareth will have to make a duplicate fermata with special settings to be used in combination with the accent. I thought this new stacking thing was supposed to give us control over things like this. Instead, it's the same old thing, half-baked new features still requiring workarounds.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:25 pm

It's music engraving.
I highly doubt there will EVER be any sort of total automation of placement that does not require SOME tweaking at some point.
Engraving music is more complex than type-setting a book.
Don't blame MM for the very simple fact that music will ALWAYS be full of exceptions to placement of various items.
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:44 pm

Michel R E wrote:Don't blame MM for the very simple fact that music will ALWAYS be full of exceptions to placement of various items.
I wasn't clear. I do blame MM for not having a separate setting for distance between stacked articulations. It's obviously needed. You're right, good music engraving requires a good eye and a willingness to do a lot of manual tweaking. However, it would be nice to have the available controls to produce better looking defaults.
N. Grossingink
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:05 pm

Traditionally, Finale has been very flexible and configurable for this sort of thing--it's one if its strengths over the competition. But more recent features often seem half-baked. The vertical offset to the notehead was already there. To use the same value for the distance between articulations shows a lack of thought going into the new feature.

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elbsound
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Post by elbsound » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:25 am

Perfect Layout for Finale also has a stacking algorithm that uses a more complex approach.

- articulations are stacked by their "natural" order (i.e. bow markings on top, followed by fermatas, etc.), not by the order in the articulation dialog. Both have advantages/disadvantages. Perfect Layout isn't flexible, but it follows the "standard". Finale is flexible, but you may have to adjust your articulation dialog to follow the standard.

- the distance between articulations or notes depends on the symbol shape, not on the symbol (rectangle) boundary as in Finale's stacking: i.e. an accent with a diagonal line at the bottom/top will be moved closer to other articulations/notes as the diagonal line would otherwise look too far away from other symbols. This is even more exact than the "SMuFl" approach. But only few symbols are currently supported in Perfect Layout for this approach.
In practice this is just a nuance (maybe 2-5 EVPU difference) - just what Michel R E says makes the differences -, but it is visible as you can see in this comparison of Perfect Layout in Fin2014 and Finale's auto-stacking in v26 (both with default values):
while the distance to the notes is identical, the accents, up-/down bow marks and the fermata are slightly closer to the next articulation/slur symbol. These articulations have in common that they only have a very small area at their boundary (diagonal line or vertical line or small circle), so visually they need to be moved closer to other shapes than articulations with a wide line at the boundary.
It is especially visible if you have diagonal connections as on an accent below a slur (see last notes).

Perfect Layout in the Gold edition has several parameters to control articulation distances:
the general articulation stacking distance, the distance to above slurs, to below slurs, to hairpins, to dynamics, to tuplet brackets, to tuplet numbers and a general extra offset (to increase all distances of vertically colliding objects with one setting).

There are lots things that can be automated in articulation placement, but many of them require a symbol dependent approach. That's why Perfect Layout uses a font database that tells the plug-in which symbol is actually visible. Is it a fermata, an accent or just dot?

The plug-in uses the same approach also on dynamics placement: for example a "mf" has lots of space in the top left corner and a bit in the bottom right corner, a "f" has both free space in top left corner and the bottom right corner. So when finding out the best visual placement near slurs or other symbols, this can lead to a closer distance without colliding. This is also the approach that the new font standard SMuFl suggests, except that Perfect Layout supports it also for more than 400 non-SMuFl music fonts.
comparison auto-stacking perfect layout and finale 26 small.jpg

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