Roman Numberal Prolongation

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Nick Mazuk
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Roman Numberal Prolongation

Post by Nick Mazuk » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:36 pm

Ok, so let's say you're using the lyrics tool to type in Roman Numberal analysis into the score using this method:

https://usermanuals.finalemusic.com/Fin ... d-bass.htm

How would you add the horizontal lines used to prolong and extend chords? Is there a way to do it still within the lyrics tool? Or do we need use use an expression or smartshape.
Nick

Re: Roman Numberal Prolongation

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N Grossingink
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Re: Roman Numberal Prolongation

Post by N Grossingink » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:16 pm

Use lyric Word Extensions. You must draw each manually.
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Anders Hedelin
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Re: Roman Numberal Prolongation

Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Aug 28, 2019 10:56 am

If you use word extensions, you might want the line centered vertically in relation to the numeral/figure. Document Options > Lyrics > Word Extensions > Lyric Alignment > Vertical Offset From Baseline: app. 0,1–0,2 cm, depending on the size of the numeral/figure.
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Roman Numberal Prolongation

Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:06 am

A way of designating a repeated harmony is a dash (Alt+hyphen on Mac, Alt+0150 on Windows). (The dash repeats the Roman numeral only.)
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HaraldS
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Re: Roman Numberal Prolongation

Post by HaraldS » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:23 pm

N Grossingink wrote:Use lyric Word Extensions. You must draw each manually.
Laborious, but true. Would be a nice JWLua task to find out how long an analysis number is valid and to extend the word extension line automatically...this isn't the background of your question, Nick, by any chance ;) ?
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motet
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Re: Roman Numberal Prolongation

Post by motet » Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:55 pm

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding. I got this with "Type into score" and spacebar. No manual drawing.
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zuill
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Re: Roman Numberal Prolongation

Post by zuill » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:07 pm

The link in the original post is about using the Finale Numerics font for adding the numbers (Arabic, not Roman) under the staff. The method Finale uses stacks 3 numbers under the staff. If Word Extensions is on, it produces one extension aligned with the bottom of the stack of numbers, which is not what is desired for figured bass. I think the title of this thread doesn't match the question as posed by the link provided. Maybe we need more clarification from the OP as to what is meant. Possibly Figured Bass Numeral Prolongation is what was meant.

Zuill

P.S.: Here's what you get when "Smart Word Extensions" is turned on.
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Figured Bass With Finale Numerics.jpg
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Last edited by zuill on Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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motet
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Re: Roman Numberal Prolongation

Post by motet » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:31 pm

Ah, thank you. Are kids not taught about "Roman numerals" in school anymore?

Nick Mazuk
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Re: Roman Numberal Prolongation

Post by Nick Mazuk » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:47 pm

zuill wrote:The link in the original post is about using the Finale Numerics font for adding the numbers (Arabic, not Roman) under the staff. The method Finale uses stacks 3 numbers under the staff. If Word Extensions is on, it produces one extension aligned with the bottom of the stack of numbers, which is not what is desired for figured bass. I think the title of this thread doesn't match the question as posed by the link provided. Maybe we need more clarification from the OP as to what is meant. Possibly Figured Bass Numeral Prolongation is what was meant.

Zuill

P.S.: Here's what you get when "Smart Word Extensions" is turned on.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking about. I haven't yet tried any of the above solutions, but hoping to later today to see if they work.
HaraldS wrote:
N Grossingink wrote:Use lyric Word Extensions. You must draw each manually.
Laborious, but true. Would be a nice JWLua task to find out how long an analysis number is valid and to extend the word extension line automatically...this isn't the background of your question, Nick, by any chance ;) ?
Never thought about using JW Lua for this. If it's a laborious solution, just scripting it would be a good idea.
motet wrote:Ah, thank you. Are kids not taught about "Roman numerals" in school anymore?
I have no idea where that comment came from, but I at least was taught "Roman Numerals". Though surprisingly not everyone in my college theory class knew them well, let alone harmonic analysis with them.

Using the Finale Numerics font, it is possible to do both figured bass and roman numerals like this:
Screen Shot 2019-08-28 at 9.42.14 AM.png
Screen Shot 2019-08-28 at 9.42.14 AM.png (33.19 KiB) Viewed 503 times
Though as far as I know using the default word extensions doesn't work well for indicating prolongation or even the continuation of a chord. Like this*:
Screen Shot 2019-08-28 at 9.44.36 AM.png
Screen Shot 2019-08-28 at 9.44.36 AM.png (36.36 KiB) Viewed 503 times
*Ok, that's really bad voice leading.

To make that image, I used a Smartshape. But if I could keep everything in using the lyric tool, that would be simpler and easier.
Nick

Anders Hedelin
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Re: Roman Numberal Prolongation

Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:59 pm

N Grossingink wrote:Use lyric Word Extensions. You must draw each manually.
In Document Options > Lyrics tool > Word Extensions, you obviously have to uncheck 'Use Smart Word Extensions'. About how to place it vertically, please see my earlier post.

Nick, in your second example I would advise using a dash for the repeated Roman numeral, not an extension line, and rewriting the Arabic figure.

No problem with the voice leading as such, since it is a simple octave shift.
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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zuill
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Re: Roman Numberal Prolongation

Post by zuill » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:23 pm

There is still a handle for the extension, even when SWE is turned off. The line can then be manually dragged to where it needs to go. However, there's just one line per stack. I was thinking each level of the stack would need its own line, so Word Extensions won't work for that. Maybe I'm wrong. If only one line is needed, then Word Extensions could work. However, they seem to align with the lowest number. So, changing the default setting might not work the same for each type (single number, 2 stacked, 3 stacked).

Zuill
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Anders Hedelin
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Re: Roman Numberal Prolongation

Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Aug 28, 2019 7:04 pm

As I see it, this is a situation when you would need extension lines in harmonic analysis:
Extended figures.JPG
Extended figures.JPG (13.89 KiB) Viewed 482 times
Otherwise, I'm not so sure.
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Anders Hedelin
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Re: Roman Numberal Prolongation

Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:46 pm

Here's the harmonic analysis notation I'm used to when a harmony is repeated/prolonged:
Harmonic dashes 1.JPG
Harmonic dashes 1.JPG (16.34 KiB) Viewed 437 times
Harmonic dashes.JPG
Harmonic dashes.JPG (17.38 KiB) Viewed 437 times
Probably there are other ways of doing this, but this one has served me and my students well over the years.
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