On to Dorico

General notation questions, including advanced notation, formatting, etc., go here.

Moderators: miker, Peter Thomsen

Post Reply
ewindels
Posts: 140
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:05 am
Finale Version: 2014.5
Operating System: Windows

On to Dorico

Post by ewindels » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:44 pm

Windows 7 Finale 26

For what it’s worth, I’m done.

A 20+ year advocate of this platform, I’ve now had enough. The 26 “upgrade” is a joke. I’ve only attempted one document on it since purchasing it in June. Spacing is a mess, with accidental collisions ride (see my earlier post). Yesterday, Support admitted after SIX WEEKS of useless emails that they have no solution and I would have to manually adjust measures and notes moving forward, a suggestion that’s almost incomprehensible. The playback system is a downgrade from earlier versions. 25 corrupted three documents for which MM never provided an explanation or solution.

As a decades long proponent of this program, It is sad to see what use to be the benchmark for the digital engraving industry reduced to hucksterism.

I’ll be back for help on 2014.5 and 2011, but anyone buying any future versions of this program is crazy.

End of rant. Good luck to the rest of you.
Windows 7 Finale 2014.5 GPO

Re: On to Dorico

by Sponsor

Forum Sponsor
 

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 2823
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.2
Operating System: Windows

Re: On to Dorico

Post by zuill » Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:48 pm

I hope Dorico is all that you expect it to be. Let us know how it all turns out.

Zuill
Windows 7, Finale 2011-v26.2
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
motet
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005
Operating System: Windows

Re: On to Dorico

Post by motet » Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:25 pm

I looked at a couple of your recent threads, ewindels. Dorico may well do better on this one with all the flats colliding vertically:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18032

In the other thread, though,

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18098&

it looked to me like there was some manual spacing at play; I suggested you try clearing it--did you? Zuill was reminded of another problem he had seen involving hidden entries, and offered to take a look. We never heard back from you.

Alas, these days just because MakeMusic support can't solve a problem, that doesn't mean there's no solution.

At any rate, good luck. I, too, would be interested in hearing how things go.

User avatar
N Grossingink
Posts: 1283
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:50 pm
Finale Version: 2012, 25.3
Operating System: Mac

Re: On to Dorico

Post by N Grossingink » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:53 pm

I read your "Ghost Spacing" topic. Whatever is going on is untypical of Finale, any version. I'm guessing the problem is relatively simple to solve, but lies just beneath the surface so troubleshooting takes a lot of steps.

Was this file started on a clean, unused template? Or did you clean out a previously used file and use that? Cleaned out files sometimes leave nasty, hard to find things behind. Your new templates should be of a more recent vintage, say created on Finale 2014.5. Older templates can have "erroneous information" in them (Make Music's words, not mine).

Can you post that mis-spaced page for us to look at? You seem to be spending a lot of time with Make Music on these problems. Maybe you should count on this forum a little more, or try the Finale Powerusers Facebook page.
N. Grossingink
Department of Public Works Music Engraving Inspector - Milwaukee, WI


Mac Mini 2014 2.6 Ghz, 8Gb RAM
OSX 10.12.6
Finale 2012c, 25.5, 26.2

oldmkvi
Posts: 214
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:13 pm
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Mac

Re: On to Dorico

Post by oldmkvi » Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:36 pm

Finale Forum!

If they can't fix it, it ain't broke.

User avatar
MikeHalloran
Posts: 668
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:56 am
Finale Version: 26.2
Operating System: Mac

Re: On to Dorico

Post by MikeHalloran » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:57 pm

Crossgrade is $279.99. Have fun.

https://new.steinberg.net/dorico/?_sp=9 ... rico-pro-3

I bought it last year when the crossgrade was on sale. There are things I like about the look. There are things I dislike such as ... oh ... everything else. Evaluating 3 right now.

If Dorico's MusicXML handling wasn't so poor, I might use Finale for the heavy lifting and polish in Dorico but not yet. Just isn't ready, IMO. Dorico 4, perhaps? 5?
Mike Halloran

Finale 26.2, SmartScore X2 Pro, GPO5 & World Instruments
2017 iMac Pro 14 Core, 128G RAM, 2TB Mojave; 2012 MBP Catalina
NotePerformer3, Dorico3, Overture, Notion, Encore, DP 10, Logic Pro
Old G4: OS 10.4/9.2, Finale 1998–2011

User avatar
motet
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005
Operating System: Windows

Re: On to Dorico

Post by motet » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:59 pm

I am curious what Dorico would do with the problem in the first link above I posted, with the flats colliding vertically. It seems like Finale uses a rectangle around the accidentals instead of "kerning" them.

Nick Mazuk
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:29 am
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Mac

Re: On to Dorico

Post by Nick Mazuk » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:31 pm

MikeHalloran wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:57 pm
Crossgrade is $279.99. Have fun.

https://new.steinberg.net/dorico/?_sp=9 ... rico-pro-3

I bought it last year when the crossgrade was on sale. There are things I like about the look. There are things I dislike such as ... oh ... everything else. Evaluating 3 right now.

If Dorico's MusicXML handling wasn't so poor, I might use Finale for the heavy lifting and polish in Dorico but not yet. Just isn't ready, IMO. Dorico 4, perhaps? 5?
Curious what you mean by Dorico's MusicXML handling. A month or so ago I was playing around with version 2 and it imported my Finale produced MusicXML almost flawlessly. Took only about 10 minutes to fix the headers.

The main reason why I haven't used Dorico for the engraving is that I can't quite get the look I'm looking for. Dorico's Bravura tries to emulate a more handwritten look, but I prefer the sharp edges of Finale's Maestro and Engraver fonts. With that said, it does collision avoidance almost flawlessly!
Nick

User avatar
MikeHalloran
Posts: 668
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:56 am
Finale Version: 26.2
Operating System: Mac

Re: On to Dorico

Post by MikeHalloran » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:26 am

Nick Mazuk wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:31 pm
MikeHalloran wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:57 pm
Crossgrade is $279.99. Have fun.

https://new.steinberg.net/dorico/?_sp=9 ... rico-pro-3

I bought it last year when the crossgrade was on sale. There are things I like about the look. There are things I dislike such as ... oh ... everything else. Evaluating 3 right now.

If Dorico's MusicXML handling wasn't so poor, I might use Finale for the heavy lifting and polish in Dorico but not yet. Just isn't ready, IMO. Dorico 4, perhaps? 5?
Curious what you mean by Dorico's MusicXML handling. A month or so ago I was playing around with version 2 and it imported my Finale produced MusicXML almost flawlessly. Took only about 10 minutes to fix the headers.

The main reason why I haven't used Dorico for the engraving is that I can't quite get the look I'm looking for. Dorico's Bravura tries to emulate a more handwritten look, but I prefer the sharp edges of Finale's Maestro and Engraver fonts. With that said, it does collision avoidance almost flawlessly!
We're looking for different things. For what I need, Dorico is terrible and 3 is no better than 2.2. I'm going to leave it at that.

For one composer I work with, Notion 6 imports his Sibelius files perfectly via .xml — much better than Finale. I don't know why nor do I care. The crossgrade to Notion is le$$ than I charge by the hour.
Mike Halloran

Finale 26.2, SmartScore X2 Pro, GPO5 & World Instruments
2017 iMac Pro 14 Core, 128G RAM, 2TB Mojave; 2012 MBP Catalina
NotePerformer3, Dorico3, Overture, Notion, Encore, DP 10, Logic Pro
Old G4: OS 10.4/9.2, Finale 1998–2011

ebiggs1
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:57 am
Finale Version: Finale 2014.5 - 26.1
Operating System: Windows

Re: On to Dorico

Post by ebiggs1 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:25 pm

"Spacing is a mess, with accidental collisions ride (see my earlier post)."

Not so fast there! You just might give Perfect Layout a try. I have been discussing and cussing it for a couple weeks now and my basic conclusion is, it is a buy. Send them your file and see what it will do. https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/

When it works it makes Finale what MM should have done a long time ago. It can't hurt to see what PL will do for you.
Finale 2014.5 - Finale 26
Window 10

User avatar
BuonTempi
Posts: 725
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am
Finale Version: Finale 25
Operating System: Mac

Re: On to Dorico

Post by BuonTempi » Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:33 am

ebiggs1 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:25 pm
You just might give Perfect Layout a try. When it works it makes Finale what MM should have done a long time ago.
Jan is to be commended for the extraordinary effort and achievement of his Perfect Layout plug-in. But you are right: this is what Finale should be doing already (and as with Patterson Beams: automatically by default, rather than only when you run a plug-in).

However, the additional costs for Perfect Layout, TG Tools Pro, and all the other tools that automate the tedious drudgery of Finale certainly mitigate the expense of a cross-grade to any competing product. Thank the Lord that JW doesn't charge for his plug-ins!

ebiggs1
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:57 am
Finale Version: Finale 2014.5 - 26.1
Operating System: Windows

Re: On to Dorico

Post by ebiggs1 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:34 pm

"...all the other tools that automate the tedious drudgery of Finale..."
Your point is well made about those plug-ins but not so much applies to PL. How many people would buy MS Word if it put words or letters all over the page an or top of one another? I also don't understand why MM resists efforts to fix that. Perhaps they could possibly include Perfect Layout? Sibelius has their magic magnet or some such. PL far exceeds that!
Finale 2014.5 - Finale 26
Window 10

User avatar
dankreider
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:14 pm
Finale Version: Finale 25.5
Operating System: Windows

Re: On to Dorico

Post by dankreider » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:35 am

motet wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:59 pm
I am curious what Dorico would do with the problem in the first link above I posted, with the flats colliding vertically. It seems like Finale uses a rectangle around the accidentals instead of "kerning" them.
Here's the passage in Dorico, with no manual adjustments. I'm not crazy about the final slur, but you can see the flats are nicely spaced.
Attachments
Dorico flat kerning.jpg
Dorico flat kerning.jpg (52.72 KiB) Viewed 582 times
Finale 25.5
Windows 10
Garritan mostly
General Editor at gracemusic.us

User avatar
elbsound
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:06 am
Finale Version: Finale 2014.5
Operating System: Windows

Re: On to Dorico

Post by elbsound » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:33 am

Here is a short video demo of making Ed's original Finale score more comparable with Dan's Dorico screenshot in just 100 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTM4imFCXso
It seems like Dan used more horizontal space. That's why it still looks a bit squeezed.

I used Aruvarb (Finale's Bravura font), Times New Roman and Perfect Layout v1.5 to get this result:
aruvarb and perfect layout.jpg
aruvarb and perfect layout.jpg (61.2 KiB) Viewed 455 times

User avatar
BuonTempi
Posts: 725
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am
Finale Version: Finale 25
Operating System: Mac

Re: On to Dorico

Post by BuonTempi » Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:04 pm

ebiggs1 wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:34 pm
Your point is well made about those plug-ins but not so much applies to PL. How many people would buy MS Word if it put words or letters all over the page an or top of one another?
I'd say it exactly applies to PL: How many people would buy MS Word if you had to buy Perfect Text™ to stop the letters bumping into each other?

PL is pretty much essential to any serious use of Finale: it is therefore an essential cost of using Finale. Or to put it another way, Finale without Perfect Layout and TG Tools and JW plug-ins is inadequate. It's a 'Lite' version in which you keep running into limitations and obstacles.
ebiggs1 wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:34 pm
I also don't understand why MM resists efforts to fix that.
Because they have to make sure that old documents still open the same. Or still can open the same. That's why you'll never see Patterson Beams folded into the core of Finale, so that the settings are applied as you go along entering notes.

Also, I'm trying to think of a single significant feature since the Selection Tool in 2008 that has received anything more than damp praise or mild opprobrium from the userbase.

Expression Categories? Outrage!
Lyric revamp? Meh, new bugs for old.
Staff Spacing/Grouping/Hiding? Possibly the most successful, though there were grumbles about some tasks being more difficult or impossible.
Percussion? Madness!
Artic Collision? Incompatibility Danger!

ebiggs1
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:57 am
Finale Version: Finale 2014.5 - 26.1
Operating System: Windows

Re: On to Dorico

Post by ebiggs1 » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:55 pm

Because they have to make sure that old documents still open the same. Or still can open the same.
I don't buy that at all. It would be simple matter of fact to ask a person before the older file is opened. Or, perhaps a different extension to tell Finale if it is a new file or an old one. My conclusion and the only one that makes any sense is MM simply doesn't have the programmers, coders, to do it. They likely have one or two folks that understand the code which must be millions of lines. The fact is that coders are in high demand. Tech job hiring is up and software developers are still the most difficult talent to recruit. Music notation isn't like the highest paid positions. My guess, maybe I'm wrong but, I suspect MM uses programmers or coders, on a jobber status.
Finale 2014.5 - Finale 26
Window 10

User avatar
motet
Posts: 3601
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005
Operating System: Windows

Re: On to Dorico

Post by motet » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:10 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:04 pm
Expression Categories? Outrage!
Gee, to me that's one of the biggest improvements since I've been using Finale.

User avatar
BuonTempi
Posts: 725
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am
Finale Version: Finale 25
Operating System: Mac

Re: On to Dorico

Post by BuonTempi » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:56 am

motet wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:10 pm
BuonTempi wrote:
Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:04 pm
Expression Categories? Outrage!
Gee, to me that's one of the biggest improvements since I've been using Finale.
Me too, but at the time, there was significant forum fury about how this was going to upset existing workflows, and that 4 Staff Sets wasn't nearly enough (MM relented and increased them to 8 ).

Post Reply