Multimeasure doesn't break on time alteration ... correctly(?)
Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker
I have the "Break Multimeasure" option in the Category Designer for Tempo Alterations checked, and I see that the outcome is different from when this is not checked. My concern is: if there are say 6 measures of rests where the second beat of measure 3 contains a "rit.", Finale will make two multimeasure rest of the 2 and 4 bars and place the "rit." somewhere between the start of and middle of the 4 bar multimeasure rest. Isn't common engraving practice to break the multimeasure rest so that the performer can see exactly where in which bar the "rit." is? Is it intuitive or common knowledge to the performer that the tempo alteration is from the second beat of the first bar of the multimeasure rest? The tempo alterations counts also as cues for the performer?
See attachments.
Thank you!
Magne
See attachments.
Thank you!
Magne
- Peter Thomsen
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Displaying a rit. in the middle of a multimeasure rest looks like lazy engraving.
It may cost precious rehearsal time because of questions from the performers.
Two ideas:
1) Break the multimeasure rest to show, exactly where the rit. occurs (and perhaps also force the display of a measure number).
2) Do not show the rit. in the parts with multimeasure rests.
It may cost precious rehearsal time because of questions from the performers.
Two ideas:
1) Break the multimeasure rest to show, exactly where the rit. occurs (and perhaps also force the display of a measure number).
2) Do not show the rit. in the parts with multimeasure rests.
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996
- motet
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I encounter this often. What I do is set the Tempo Alterations category to break multimeasure rests, which will break before the measure with the expression, but if the expression is not on beat one, I also set the measure attribute "break multimeasure rest" on the measure with the expression, which breaks after the measure (go figure). (It would be a welcome new feature if Finale did this automatically.)
I would not leave the rit. out of the parts. Players counting rests need to see it.
I would not leave the rit. out of the parts. Players counting rests need to see it.
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If you have a large score it can be tedious to break the multimeasure rests in all the parts concerned, so I've found that you could place a hidden character from the tempo alteration category (breaking multimeasure rests) in the following measure. That would display the measure with the rit.
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- motet
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That's a good idea. Rather than literally "hidden", though, an expression with no text doesn't require hiding, which would be an extra step.
Last edited by motet on Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Motet beat me to it with a better solution.
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- Michel R E
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it's not really an "extra step".
whether you create an expression with no text, or create one where the text is hidden, is the same thing.
just create whatever expression you want and give it the "hidden" attribute in the font choice.
there's no issue with having to hide on a one-by-one basis. it's a "place it once and forget it".
Also, with a hidden text expression, you will be able to see where you've placed these expressions in your score (depending on what degree you set the "view invisible items" setting.)
While an expression with no text at all becomes harder to see, since all you see is its handle.
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Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
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Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
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I agree with that. If you use an invisible "character" it's easy to forget if you put it where you wanted to or not.
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- zuill
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For a measure such as this, I enter a real whole rest, and then the bar is excluded from the MM rest(s). I think it is important to see a "rit." that is affecting everyone else. Otherwise, it's easy to lose count during the MM rest. It's also important to see the "a tempo". How is a hidden expression to break a MM rest better than a Real Whole Rest? Maybe I am missing something.
Zuill
Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
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The hidden expression has to be from a category which breaks MM rests. Entering a real whole note rest risks the annoying too-many-beats window to pop up.
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- zuill
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Finale has a plugin called Change to Real Whole Rests. It doesn't affect measures with notes in them. If you apply it to any other time signature, it still enters a real whole rest, and you don't need to deal with the too many beats problem. Just highlight the whole measure stack and apply it in one click.
Zuill
Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
- Michel R E
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because inserting an invisible expression for an entire measure stack, once, is far easier than having to insert real whole rests for each staff that needs it.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
- motet
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Right you are, Zuill. In fact, I was confused--my plug-in adds whole rests with fermatas to any empty measures (so you can put in your music with fermatas and then run the plug-in to put whole rests with fermatas in empty measures). Obviously not what's wanted here! I have edited the above.
- zuill
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[Edit: My reply is to Michel's post. Motet's post got in between while I was typing.]
I think the time is about the same, but we each have our work flow and that's what makes things interesting. With my method, the time I save is by not having to create an expression in the first place.
Zuill
P.S.: After posting, it occurs to me that maybe I didn't explain my method well.
1. Highlight a measure stack by double clicking.
2. Apply the Change to Real Whole Rests plugin.
I think the time is about the same, but we each have our work flow and that's what makes things interesting. With my method, the time I save is by not having to create an expression in the first place.
Zuill
P.S.: After posting, it occurs to me that maybe I didn't explain my method well.
1. Highlight a measure stack by double clicking.
2. Apply the Change to Real Whole Rests plugin.
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."
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yup, its still faster to insert an invisible expression.
it takes all of 15 seconds to create an invisible expression.
and once it's done, it exists for any files you need. it's not like you have to recreate it every time you need one.
you have to highlight a measure stack.
I just use the metatool for my invisible expression and click.
you then go to the plugins menu.
I move on to entering more notes.
you then select the correct plugin.
I'm now 2 pages ahead.
you then select the correct function from that plugin.
I'm off on my coffeebreak.
I think you get my drift.
it takes all of 15 seconds to create an invisible expression.
and once it's done, it exists for any files you need. it's not like you have to recreate it every time you need one.
you have to highlight a measure stack.
I just use the metatool for my invisible expression and click.
you then go to the plugins menu.
I move on to entering more notes.
you then select the correct plugin.
I'm now 2 pages ahead.
you then select the correct function from that plugin.
I'm off on my coffeebreak.
I think you get my drift.
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
- motet
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I guess I tend towards the invisible expression solution, though I don't need a "hidden" reminder ( I set the hidden display level to 0). Again, It would be great if Finale did this automatically.
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There's no need for selecting a measure stack, or using a plug-in. Just create the expression in Tempo marks or Tempo alterations, which place it in all parts, and which break MM rests. Well, they should, but I just noticed that only the Tempo Marks category breaks a MM rest by default, the Tempo Alterations doesn't. Strange, but easily fixed. (Place the expression in the measure after the rit. etc.)
I apologize for repeating myself, but maybe I wasn't clear enough earlier. It's also possible that it is faster with another method - I haven't clocked it. Motet's suggestion to assign a metatool to the expression would make it fast enough, I would imagine.
I apologize for repeating myself, but maybe I wasn't clear enough earlier. It's also possible that it is faster with another method - I haven't clocked it. Motet's suggestion to assign a metatool to the expression would make it fast enough, I would imagine.
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