When one in four isn't good enough

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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:23 am

Momentarily I'm working in a score in which Finale manages to actually draw only one in four exactly the same diminuendi correctly. Only the bassoon staff (Fg.) has the correct starting and ending point of the diminuendo. Flute and clarinet are missing the ending and oboe misses the entire beginning of the smart shape. In score view the smart shapes are correctly drawn.
I have selected all smart shapes and had them aligned vertically with the diminuendo on the bassoon staff, but to no effect.

How to convince Finale that I would like to see entire smart shapes drawn from beginning to end, not only fragments of that as Finale pleases?
Running Finale 25.4.1.163 in OS X 10.11.6


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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:07 pm

My first guess would be that the hairpins are not completely aligned.

I would set the Copy Filter to copy only Smart Shapes (Assigned to Beats).
Then, copy the bassoon staff’s hairpin to the other staves.
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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:02 pm

That did draw the diminuendi correctly. Thank you.

In other words: aligning a smart shape vertically does not align a smart shape vertically, evidently. Finale never ceases to amaze me.

Still, why doesn't Finale always draw a smart shape from starting point to end point over a system break? They should have been drawn from start to end whether I aligned them or not (which I btw only did after I noticed they weren't drawn correctly). The alignment should not be necessary, since the smart shape attaches automatically to the whole note and to the eighth rest, which should make it aligned in the first place. What is the rationale behind this or is it simply yet another bug?
Last edited by Jay Emmes on Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Running Finale 25.4.1.163 in OS X 10.11.6

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:07 pm

The fact that parts are not showing shouldn't be related to alignment. There has to be something else going on. I tested this and I don't have any parts not showing, and the hairpins were not aligned.

For alignment, you might want to check out Jari's JW Pattern plugin. You might have better success.

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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:37 pm

It looks like you're trying to draw the hairpin over a system break in page view. I think it's wise to switch to scroll view in a case like this.
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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:58 pm

The fact that copying fixed it suggests to me that they weren't originally drawn the same, but it does sound like buggy behavior, too. The fact that there are two handles, one each side of the system break, makes the "align vertically" function questionable: which handle should you use? I'll echo what N. Grossingink says: work in scroll view. I've never had problems such as this.

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Jay Emmes
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Post by Jay Emmes » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:43 am

The smart shapes were drawn in scroll view. As a matter of fact, I always work in scroll view, but turn to page view for layout when the score is completed. That's when I noticed that the smart shapes weren't drawn correctly on some staves.

The align vertically command is redundant since MakeMusic made smart shapes attach to beat or note. In this case I used the 'align vertically' command in the hope to see the smart shapes drawn on all staves, but to no effect.

Slurs can, but crescendi and diminuendi cannot be drawn over a system break in page view.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:54 pm

Jay Emmes wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:43 am
Slurs can, but crescendi and diminuendi cannot be drawn over a system break in page view.
In Windows, they can be dragged to another system or another page. This must be a difference between Mac and Windows,

Zuill
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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:15 pm

Jay Emmes wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:43 am
 … …The align vertically command is redundant since MakeMusic made smart shapes attach to beat or note. In this case I used the 'align vertically' command in the hope to see the smart shapes drawn on all staves, but to no effect.

Slurs can, but crescendi and diminuendi cannot be drawn over a system break in page view.
I still find align vertically extremely useful since the attachment point may not be where I wish hairpins to begin or end.

I can confirm that on a Mac hairpins do not seems able to be drawn over system breaks in page view.
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gogreen
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Post by gogreen » Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:50 pm

I can confirm that on a Mac hairpins do not seems able to be drawn over system breaks in page view.
Also my experience. I work most comfortably in page view, so when I see hairpins that don't draw over a system break, I enter scroll view, move the hairpins around a bit, and realign them. That works most of the time. If it doesn't work, I stay in scroll view, erase the hairpins, and draw and align them again. That works. Yeah, I should probably just work in scroll view, but I'm comfortable working in page view. The problem in page view for me occurs only sometimes.
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:22 pm

The JW Pattern feature has quite a few settings for entering or copying hairpins which can be used instead of manually adding them staff by staff and then aligning. I know it may not be the end-all regarding hairpins, but might be an option to consider. If you highlight 2 measures that bridge 2 systems, it works well. Again, however, this is in Windows. I wonder if someone could test it on Mac to see if that might be an option, if switching to scroll view is not wanted.

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zuill
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Post by zuill » Fri Sep 27, 2019 4:34 pm

In further testing, I remembered that, to get the hairpin to advance to the next system, it might take a slight movement of the mouse up or down when over the next system. If you drag straight across, it doesn't work.

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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:52 am

David Ward wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:15 pm

I can confirm that on a Mac hairpins do not seems able to be drawn over system breaks in page view.
David, I work entirely in page view and constantly draw hairpins (and various other smart shapes) over system breaks. But it is generally piano music. Hold down the mouse button to the end of the first line and bring the cursor straight down until it encounters the same staff that you attached the hairpin on the starting system, that is, if you attached it to the bottom system, the hairpin will not be produced until you bring it down to the bottom system on the next line. The hairpin will then fill in the entire next line and you can bring it back to its proper ending position with the cursor. I just produced a hairpin that continued from staff to staff over 6 systems on one page and then to 6 systems of the next page with no issues.
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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:58 am

John Ruggero wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:52 am
… … …David, I work entirely in page view and constantly draw hairpins (and various other smart shapes) over system breaks. But it is generally piano music. Hold down the mouse button to the end of the first line and bring the cursor straight down until it encounters the same staff that you attached the hairpin on the starting system, that is, if you attached it to the bottom system, the hairpin will not be produced until you bring it down to the bottom system on the next line. The hairpin will then fill in the entire next line and you can bring it back to its proper ending position with the cursor. I just produced a hairpin that continued from staff to staff over 6 systems on one page and then to 6 systems of the next page with no issues.
That doesn't work for me (with a trackpad rather than a mouse, but that shouldn't matter). No matter how far below the original stave I take the cursor, including to the equivalent stave in the next system down, it just affects the length of the hairpin in the original system. Or if I make it not horizontal, it drags the end of the hairpin to wherever I take it, crossing staves and systems, even backwards or off the page if that's how I do it.

A difference in our settings perhaps?
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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:58 pm

I don't think I have any special settings for smart shapes that would affect this. The only way I found that it did not work is if I carry the end point of the hairpin down outside the margin.

I can even draw the hairpin any length on the first line, release the mouse button and then select the red ending diamond on the end of the hairpin and drag it straight down to the lower staff of the next system and it will complete the hairpin on the first line and continue to the next. I took a couple of screen shots:
hairpin 1.jpeg
hairpin 2.jpeg
hairpin 3.jpeg
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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:03 pm

Ha! I've found the reason. In Preferences, if Anchor Indicator Lines When Dragging is selected it doesn't work. One can either deselect that in Preferences or temporarily disable it by pressing Option, and then this way of extending a hairpin across systems in Page View does work. This is good to know.

I thought I'd tried it with Option pressed before, but obviously didn't do it correctly. I prefer to keep the anchoring selected as my default, but I often temporarily disable it via Option.
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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:32 pm

Anchor Indicator Lines When Dragging is a new one on me, David. Can't imagine what it does but will investigate.

Anyway, I am glad that you can now make access this capability in Page View. I find it invaluable.
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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:22 am

John Ruggero wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:32 pm
… … …Can't imagine what it does but will investigate… … …
It makes no difference to the initial entry of hairpins &c (or rather, I didn't think so until this question of hairpins across more than one system arose). However, it means that the anchor point remains attached to the beat/note to which you attached it on entry when you make later small adjustments to the length of hairpins (&c) already entered in the score. Since whichever setting you choose can be overridden by holding down the Option key, I don't suppose it matters much either way. With that in mind, I think I'll now try working with it unselected.
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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:46 pm

Thanks, David. Don't think I'd like that setting.
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