Irrational time signatures
Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker
Anyone who knows how to create irrational time signatures (e.g. 5/12, 7/3 etc.)?
It´s not possible in the 'Time Signature Tool', and there are no plug-ins that can solve it for me...
Any suggestions how to do it the 'least messy' way?
It´s not possible in the 'Time Signature Tool', and there are no plug-ins that can solve it for me...
Any suggestions how to do it the 'least messy' way?
Royal Academy of Music - Aarhus Denmark
- N Grossingink
- Posts: 1786
- Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:50 pm
- Finale Version: 27.3
- Operating System: Mac
I suppose the only way to do it in Finale is to use hidden tuplets. Set the Time Signature to the nearest rational time, hide the displaying time and replace with a text expression time.
Dorico produces irrational time natively, although I'm not sure how full featured this is at present.
Dorico produces irrational time natively, although I'm not sure how full featured this is at present.
N. Grossingink
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link
Mac Mini 2014 2.6 Ghz, 8Gb RAM
OSX 10.15.7
Finale 2012c, 25.5, 26.3, 27.3
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link
Mac Mini 2014 2.6 Ghz, 8Gb RAM
OSX 10.15.7
Finale 2012c, 25.5, 26.3, 27.3
- David Ward
- Posts: 814
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 4:48 pm
- Finale Version: F 25.5 & 26.3
- Operating System: Mac
To answer the OP: I suspect N Grossingink has provided the only practical answer in Finale.
To answer the others: I haven't found so called irrational time signatures freakishly difficult to sight-read once I'd grasped the principle. I don't use them in my own music, but don't see why they are considered so problematical (apart from their rarity). There's plenty of non-Western music that if one were to notate it might make •rational• use of such notation (although it would not be the only way - tempo equations might be considered more ‘normal’ but are not necessarily any easier to read).
To answer the others: I haven't found so called irrational time signatures freakishly difficult to sight-read once I'd grasped the principle. I don't use them in my own music, but don't see why they are considered so problematical (apart from their rarity). There's plenty of non-Western music that if one were to notate it might make •rational• use of such notation (although it would not be the only way - tempo equations might be considered more ‘normal’ but are not necessarily any easier to read).
Finale 25.5 & 26.3
Mac 10.13.6 & 10.14.6
Mac 10.13.6 & 10.14.6
- Peter Thomsen
- Posts: 6605
- Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
- Finale Version: Finale v27.4
- Operating System: Mac
Indeed the word “irrational” is misleading here.
Some alternative terms:
Non-power-of-2-denominator time signatures
Not dyadic rational time signatures
Anyway, to get correct playback, set the “real” time signature to the closest value.
Example: For a 5/12 time signature you need a duration of 1707 EDUs.
Hence, set the “real” time signature to
1
over
4+8+32 (Yes, three numbers in one text field!)
plus
43
over
4096
Then, hide the “real” time signature, and use the Expression Tool to add the (false) “display” time signature.
To make room for the false time signature, use the Measure Tool to add extra space at the beginning of the measure.
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996
That's how I've done so far - very long-winded process, though...N Grossingink wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:24 pmI suppose the only way to do it in Finale is to use hidden tuplets. Set the Time Signature to the nearest rational time, hide the displaying time and replace with a text expression time.
Dorico produces irrational time natively, although I'm not sure how full featured this is at present.
Thanks - I might check out Dorido!
![Smile :-)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Royal Academy of Music - Aarhus Denmark
Yes, indeed the term 'non-dyadic meter/time signature' makes more sense. But it's commonly known as 'irrational meter' (maybe because of Ferneyhough...?).Peter Thomsen wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:36 pmIndeed the word “irrational” is misleading here.
Some alternative terms:
Non-power-of-2-denominator time signatures
Not dyadic rational time signatures
Anyway, to get correct playback, set the “real” time signature to the closest value.
Example: For a 5/12 time signature you need a duration of 1707 EDUs.
Hence, set the “real” time signature to
1
over
4+8+32 (Yes, three numbers in one text field!)
plus
43
over
4096
CompositeTimeSignature.jpg
Then, hide the “real” time signature, and use the Expression Tool to add the (false) “display” time signature.
To make room for the false time signature, use the Measure Tool to add extra space at the beginning of the measure.
The playback is not important in my case - but thanks for the suggestion anyway!
Royal Academy of Music - Aarhus Denmark