Irrational time signatures

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Morten L
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Post by Morten L » Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:36 pm

Anyone who knows how to create irrational time signatures (e.g. 5/12, 7/3 etc.)?
It´s not possible in the 'Time Signature Tool', and there are no plug-ins that can solve it for me...
Any suggestions how to do it the 'least messy' way?
Royal Academy of Music - Aarhus Denmark


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miker
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Post by miker » Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:13 pm

Write rational music?
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oldmkvi
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Post by oldmkvi » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:23 pm

Not to mention how difficult that sort of thing is ( ala Feryhough )
and how few performances you'll ever get.

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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:24 pm

I suppose the only way to do it in Finale is to use hidden tuplets. Set the Time Signature to the nearest rational time, hide the displaying time and replace with a text expression time.

Dorico produces irrational time natively, although I'm not sure how full featured this is at present.
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oldmkvi
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Post by oldmkvi » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:02 pm

Don't forget me!
Best, Kai W.
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:11 pm

Ferneyhough should have looked up "irrational" before coming up with this term.

oldmkvi
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Post by oldmkvi » Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:39 pm

I'm Still laughing!!!

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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:46 pm

To answer the OP: I suspect N Grossingink has provided the only practical answer in Finale.

To answer the others: I haven't found so called irrational time signatures freakishly difficult to sight-read once I'd grasped the principle. I don't use them in my own music, but don't see why they are considered so problematical (apart from their rarity). There's plenty of non-Western music that if one were to notate it might make •rational• use of such notation (although it would not be the only way - tempo equations might be considered more ‘normal’ but are not necessarily any easier to read).
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Peter Thomsen
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Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:36 pm

Morten L wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:36 pm
Anyone who knows how to create irrational time signatures (e.g. 5/12, 7/3 etc.)? …
Indeed the word “irrational” is misleading here.

Some alternative terms:

Non-power-of-2-denominator time signatures

Not dyadic rational time signatures

Anyway, to get correct playback, set the “real” time signature to the closest value.
Example: For a 5/12 time signature you need a duration of 1707 EDUs.
Hence, set the “real” time signature to

1
over
4+8+32 (Yes, three numbers in one text field!)

plus

43
over
4096

CompositeTimeSignature.jpg

Then, hide the “real” time signature, and use the Expression Tool to add the (false) “display” time signature.

To make room for the false time signature, use the Measure Tool to add extra space at the beginning of the measure.
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oldmkvi
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Post by oldmkvi » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:01 pm

Thanks, I'll stick with Stardust...

Morten L
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Post by Morten L » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:10 am

N Grossingink wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:24 pm
I suppose the only way to do it in Finale is to use hidden tuplets. Set the Time Signature to the nearest rational time, hide the displaying time and replace with a text expression time.

Dorico produces irrational time natively, although I'm not sure how full featured this is at present.
That's how I've done so far - very long-winded process, though...
Thanks - I might check out Dorido! :-)
Royal Academy of Music - Aarhus Denmark

Morten L
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Post by Morten L » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:19 am

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:36 pm
Morten L wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:36 pm
Anyone who knows how to create irrational time signatures (e.g. 5/12, 7/3 etc.)? …
Indeed the word “irrational” is misleading here.

Some alternative terms:

Non-power-of-2-denominator time signatures

Not dyadic rational time signatures

Anyway, to get correct playback, set the “real” time signature to the closest value.
Example: For a 5/12 time signature you need a duration of 1707 EDUs.
Hence, set the “real” time signature to

1
over
4+8+32 (Yes, three numbers in one text field!)

plus

43
over
4096


CompositeTimeSignature.jpg


Then, hide the “real” time signature, and use the Expression Tool to add the (false) “display” time signature.

To make room for the false time signature, use the Measure Tool to add extra space at the beginning of the measure.
Yes, indeed the term 'non-dyadic meter/time signature' makes more sense. But it's commonly known as 'irrational meter' (maybe because of Ferneyhough...?).

The playback is not important in my case - but thanks for the suggestion anyway!
Royal Academy of Music - Aarhus Denmark

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