Accidentals carrying through the measure
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This isn't a Finale question, but notation. I've been dealing with different composers who have different opinions about accidentals carrying through the measure. One composer is adamant that the accidental only affect subsequent notes on that specific pitch in that specific octave. The other composer is just as adamant that an accidental affects that specific pitch in any octave.
Just wondering how others approach this.
Just wondering how others approach this.
- David Ward
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Definitely only in that octave. However, it is usually wise to add a cautionary to clarify if you have (for example) E flat in one octave and E natural in another ocatve later within the same bar.
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- N Grossingink
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Strongly agree.David Ward wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:55 amDefinitely only in that octave. However, it is usually wise to add a cautionary to clarify if you have (for example) E flat in one octave and E natural in another ocatve later within the same bar.
N. Grossingink
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- John Ruggero
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I've also run into this with otherwise knowledgable musicians, who will argue that an accidental affects all octaves until one points out the opposite in a book on standard notational practice. The reason is probably that in real life either the accidentals are all present or there are precautionary accidentals, so one rarely encounters the situation where the first instance has an accidental and the higher octave(s) doesn't.
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I find it strange that there are two schools of thought on this. I just got back a list of corrections the composer wants me to make, and he has asked for all of the "extra" accidentals (which are in a different octave) be removed. It's a very long piece, he took the time to go through the score and circle all of these, but I have to leave all these accidentals in. The fact that there is some confusion about them is the main reason that they should all be left in for clarity.
JT
JT
- N Grossingink
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You're really stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't envy you.
N. Grossingink
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link
Mac Mini 2014 2.6 Ghz, 8Gb RAM
OSX 10.15.7
Finale 2012c, 25.5, 26.3, 27.3
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link
Mac Mini 2014 2.6 Ghz, 8Gb RAM
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Finale 2012c, 25.5, 26.3, 27.3
- Michel R E
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what a funny coincidence.
The violinist playing my concerto next month just called to ask about this exact issue.
In my case they were forgotten courtesy naturals in an upper octave.
I sort of wish Finale would insert naturals for this type of situation, as it dos for a note later in a measure that is natural (I enter notes via MIDI keyboard, so sometimes I might not notice a required natural which I've played while entering the notes).
The violinist playing my concerto next month just called to ask about this exact issue.
In my case they were forgotten courtesy naturals in an upper octave.
I sort of wish Finale would insert naturals for this type of situation, as it dos for a note later in a measure that is natural (I enter notes via MIDI keyboard, so sometimes I might not notice a required natural which I've played while entering the notes).
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Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
- ebiggs1
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I don't know which is correct. I don't really care; I always mark both octaves. I try to make everything as clear as possible.
The accidental thing that bugs me is Finale doesn't honor one over a bar line on tied notes. If you have an Eb accidental and tie it to another E in the next measure Finale will make it back to E natural. I know it doesn't make any difference in notation just in playback.
The accidental thing that bugs me is Finale doesn't honor one over a bar line on tied notes. If you have an Eb accidental and tie it to another E in the next measure Finale will make it back to E natural. I know it doesn't make any difference in notation just in playback.
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- Michel R E
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because I enter notes with a MIDI keyboard, this isn't an issue for me. but think of it this way... if you enter an E, but don't indicate that's supposed to be flat, how is Finale supposed to know?
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
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GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
- miker
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In theory, shouldn’t Finale know, because you entered a tie?
Sort of like indicating to the program that there is a triplet coming, when you tap the correct key. It shortens the duration of the just entered note, and adjusts the remaining time for the other notes. Why wouldn’t a tie indicate that the same pitch should follow? Of course, if you enter the notes first, and then tie them, it’s more complicated for the program. Just like trying to enter all the tuplet notes on the last beat, and then making them a tuplet. (And yes, I know the ways to avoid the error!)
Sort of like indicating to the program that there is a triplet coming, when you tap the correct key. It shortens the duration of the just entered note, and adjusts the remaining time for the other notes. Why wouldn’t a tie indicate that the same pitch should follow? Of course, if you enter the notes first, and then tie them, it’s more complicated for the program. Just like trying to enter all the tuplet notes on the last beat, and then making them a tuplet. (And yes, I know the ways to avoid the error!)
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- ebiggs1
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Because it is a "tie" and Finale is supposed to be a music writing program. It's no biggie if you are just writing music but it is if you are doing a sound file.how is Finale supposed to know?
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- Michel R E
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I believe the difference between inserting a courtesy accidental and inserting an actual accidental across a barline is two different things.
The courtesy accidental is a purely graphic item, show or do not show. you can have all notes show accidentals, or none.
But a tied note across a barline would require Finale to actually change the value of the 2nd entered note.
I'm not arguing that it shouldn't do it, only offering a possible explanation why it doesn't.
A note in one measure might have the note ID of 70, while that note sharpened would be note ID 71. this is an actual difference in the MIDI value of the note.
I'm pretty sure that a lot of people here would object to Finale changing note IDs according to its own rules, rather than doing what the user inserted.
After all, isn't that one of the criticisms levied against Sibelius? That it takes into its own hands decisions that the user may not want?
The courtesy accidental is a purely graphic item, show or do not show. you can have all notes show accidentals, or none.
But a tied note across a barline would require Finale to actually change the value of the 2nd entered note.
I'm not arguing that it shouldn't do it, only offering a possible explanation why it doesn't.
A note in one measure might have the note ID of 70, while that note sharpened would be note ID 71. this is an actual difference in the MIDI value of the note.
I'm pretty sure that a lot of people here would object to Finale changing note IDs according to its own rules, rather than doing what the user inserted.
After all, isn't that one of the criticisms levied against Sibelius? That it takes into its own hands decisions that the user may not want?
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
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XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
- ebiggs1
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This is a music rule. It isn't Finale taking something like Sib does and doing what it thinks a composer wants. There is no case where a tie isn't the same note and pitch. A tie is a tie not a slur.That it takes into its own hands decisions that the user may not want?
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- ebiggs1
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You answer is as good as any and better than MM. I submitted this five or six years ago, several times since, and MM agreed it should honor it. But ..................But a tied note across a barline would require Finale to actually change the value of the 2nd entered note.
I'm not arguing that it shouldn't do it, only offering a possible explanation why it doesn't.
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President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.
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- Michel R E
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On this topic: wasn't there a plugin that checked accidentals in different octaves?
I tried looking at the various plugins that come with Finale, or with the full TGTools and saw no options specifically for this.
Is there a JW plugin that does this?
I tried looking at the various plugins that come with Finale, or with the full TGTools and saw no options specifically for this.
Is there a JW plugin that does this?
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
- ebiggs1
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Not that I am aware of, which is really not saying a thing except I don't know of any.
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President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.
President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.
- Michel R E
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I just tried the JWAccidentals plugin, but it strangely says there are missing courtesy accidentals.. where there are none required.
For example, a measure with a low G natural, then a high G natural, and it points to the high note as requiring a natural.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
For example, a measure with a low G natural, then a high G natural, and it points to the high note as requiring a natural.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
User of Finale since version 3.0 on Windows.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
Now using a mix of Finale 2012, Finale 25, and 26.1
GPO, Garritan Solo Stradivari violin, Gofriller Solo Cello.
XSamples Chamber Ensemble.
Absolute convert to NotePerformer3.
- ebiggs1
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Finale knows. Because when you enter a note with an accidental and you tie it to another same note across the bar line the accendial will disappear when you tell it. So it knows the original note was altered.But a tied note across a barline would require Finale to actually change the value of the 2nd entered note.
I'm not arguing that it shouldn't do it, only offering a possible explanation why it doesn't.
This basic music, you learn in middle-school.
Just out of curiosity does Sibelius do it too?
Finale 27.4.1 - Perfect Layout Silver - Note Performer 4.4 - SmartScore Pro 64 - Windows 11
President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.
President, The Shawnee Concert Band, Composer/Arranger, retired Music Teacher.
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I just ran into this -- a measure has Bb5 followed by B4, and I thought I might be able to trick Finale into displaying the natural by writing the B4 as B5 and then shifting it one octave down. But no, the accidental got the axe. So, the price to pay is having to endure the parens on a courtesy accidental. Whatever the universal rule may be, the performer has to get it right in performance, and that dictates minimizing the performer having to think or consult a rulebook on the fly. Rules ought to manifest this underlying principle, IMO. Maybe MM is reluctant to even make this a user preference so as to avoid scholarly condemnation.
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Thanks as always, motet, for your fast & on-target response. Got it fixed now, although I used the plug-in several times without it working -- I tweaked the choices, marking all 5 of the options on & no-parens. Then I made a default doc like your example and it worked there, then went back to my doc, and it worked. Mysterious, but it's alive now.