Accidentals carrying through the measure

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Jetcopy
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Post by Jetcopy » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:28 am

This isn't a Finale question, but notation. I've been dealing with different composers who have different opinions about accidentals carrying through the measure. One composer is adamant that the accidental only affect subsequent notes on that specific pitch in that specific octave. The other composer is just as adamant that an accidental affects that specific pitch in any octave.

Just wondering how others approach this.


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David Ward
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Post by David Ward » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:55 am

Definitely only in that octave. However, it is usually wise to add a cautionary to clarify if you have (for example) E flat in one octave and E natural in another ocatve later within the same bar.
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:03 pm

David Ward wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:55 am
Definitely only in that octave. However, it is usually wise to add a cautionary to clarify if you have (for example) E flat in one octave and E natural in another ocatve later within the same bar.
Strongly agree.
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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:45 pm

I've also run into this with otherwise knowledgable musicians, who will argue that an accidental affects all octaves until one points out the opposite in a book on standard notational practice. The reason is probably that in real life either the accidentals are all present or there are precautionary accidentals, so one rarely encounters the situation where the first instance has an accidental and the higher octave(s) doesn't.
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Post by Jetcopy » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:21 pm

I find it strange that there are two schools of thought on this. I just got back a list of corrections the composer wants me to make, and he has asked for all of the "extra" accidentals (which are in a different octave) be removed. It's a very long piece, he took the time to go through the score and circle all of these, but I have to leave all these accidentals in. The fact that there is some confusion about them is the main reason that they should all be left in for clarity.

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motet
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Post by motet » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:49 pm

I guess the customer is always right, but you might point out that it's at best ambiguous, and I'm sure he wants his music performed correctly.

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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:18 pm

You're really stuck between a rock and a hard place. I don't envy you.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:27 pm

what a funny coincidence.
The violinist playing my concerto next month just called to ask about this exact issue.
In my case they were forgotten courtesy naturals in an upper octave.

I sort of wish Finale would insert naturals for this type of situation, as it dos for a note later in a measure that is natural (I enter notes via MIDI keyboard, so sometimes I might not notice a required natural which I've played while entering the notes).
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Post by ebiggs1 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:12 pm

I don't know which is correct. I don't really care; I always mark both octaves. I try to make everything as clear as possible.

The accidental thing that bugs me is Finale doesn't honor one over a bar line on tied notes. If you have an Eb accidental and tie it to another E in the next measure Finale will make it back to E natural. I know it doesn't make any difference in notation just in playback.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:14 am

because I enter notes with a MIDI keyboard, this isn't an issue for me. but think of it this way... if you enter an E, but don't indicate that's supposed to be flat, how is Finale supposed to know?
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miker
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Post by miker » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:22 am

In theory, shouldn’t Finale know, because you entered a tie?

Sort of like indicating to the program that there is a triplet coming, when you tap the correct key. It shortens the duration of the just entered note, and adjusts the remaining time for the other notes. Why wouldn’t a tie indicate that the same pitch should follow? Of course, if you enter the notes first, and then tie them, it’s more complicated for the program. Just like trying to enter all the tuplet notes on the last beat, and then making them a tuplet. (And yes, I know the ways to avoid the error!)
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:56 am

how is Finale supposed to know?
Because it is a "tie" and Finale is supposed to be a music writing program. It's no biggie if you are just writing music but it is if you are doing a sound file.
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motet
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Post by motet » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:46 am

With QWERTY or mouse Simple entry, Finale is kind enough to perpetuate an accidental in the same measure, so why not extend that when there's a tie?

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miker
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Post by miker » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:55 am

I’m sure we could submit it as a feature request, never to be heard of, again...
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:31 am

I believe the difference between inserting a courtesy accidental and inserting an actual accidental across a barline is two different things.

The courtesy accidental is a purely graphic item, show or do not show. you can have all notes show accidentals, or none.

But a tied note across a barline would require Finale to actually change the value of the 2nd entered note.
I'm not arguing that it shouldn't do it, only offering a possible explanation why it doesn't.

A note in one measure might have the note ID of 70, while that note sharpened would be note ID 71. this is an actual difference in the MIDI value of the note.

I'm pretty sure that a lot of people here would object to Finale changing note IDs according to its own rules, rather than doing what the user inserted.
After all, isn't that one of the criticisms levied against Sibelius? That it takes into its own hands decisions that the user may not want?
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Post by ebiggs1 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:21 pm

That it takes into its own hands decisions that the user may not want?
This is a music rule. It isn't Finale taking something like Sib does and doing what it thinks a composer wants. There is no case where a tie isn't the same note and pitch. A tie is a tie not a slur.
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ebiggs1
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Post by ebiggs1 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:24 pm

But a tied note across a barline would require Finale to actually change the value of the 2nd entered note.
I'm not arguing that it shouldn't do it, only offering a possible explanation why it doesn't.
You answer is as good as any and better than MM. I submitted this five or six years ago, several times since, and MM agreed it should honor it. But ..................
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:00 pm

On this topic: wasn't there a plugin that checked accidentals in different octaves?

I tried looking at the various plugins that come with Finale, or with the full TGTools and saw no options specifically for this.

Is there a JW plugin that does this?
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Post by ebiggs1 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:05 pm

Not that I am aware of, which is really not saying a thing except I don't know of any.
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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:19 pm

I just tried the JWAccidentals plugin, but it strangely says there are missing courtesy accidentals.. where there are none required.
For example, a measure with a low G natural, then a high G natural, and it points to the high note as requiring a natural.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by ebiggs1 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:04 pm

But a tied note across a barline would require Finale to actually change the value of the 2nd entered note.
I'm not arguing that it shouldn't do it, only offering a possible explanation why it doesn't.
Finale knows. Because when you enter a note with an accidental and you tie it to another same note across the bar line the accendial will disappear when you tell it. So it knows the original note was altered.
This basic music, you learn in middle-school.

Just out of curiosity does Sibelius do it too?
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montedoro44
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Post by montedoro44 » Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:47 pm

I just ran into this -- a measure has Bb5 followed by B4, and I thought I might be able to trick Finale into displaying the natural by writing the B4 as B5 and then shifting it one octave down. But no, the accidental got the axe. So, the price to pay is having to endure the parens on a courtesy accidental. Whatever the universal rule may be, the performer has to get it right in performance, and that dictates minimizing the performer having to think or consult a rulebook on the fly. Rules ought to manifest this underlying principle, IMO. Maybe MM is reluctant to even make this a user preference so as to avoid scholarly condemnation.

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:54 pm

A courtesy accidental doesn't have to be parenthesized.
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Post by montedoro44 » Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:29 pm

Thanks as always, motet, for your fast & on-target response. Got it fixed now, although I used the plug-in several times without it working -- I tweaked the choices, marking all 5 of the options on & no-parens. Then I made a default doc like your example and it worked there, then went back to my doc, and it worked. Mysterious, but it's alive now.

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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:32 pm

You don't need a plug-in. In Simple or Speedy entry with the note selected, you can press P twice to get an unparenthesized courtesy accidental (there are other ways as well).

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