Score with two different simultaneous meters and tempi.

[mac1968]

I am trying to notate a passage in a score in which, for several measures, one part is in a different meter and tempo from the other parts. All the parts begin in the same meter and tempo, but at one point several parts shift to a faster tempo and different meter while the piano part continues in the same tempo and meter as it was. It soon rejoins the other parts. I am trying to figure out how to notate this in Finale (I'm using v. 25.5 on a Mac.) It is very easy to notate this when writing it out, but notating it in Finale seems to be a challenge. I'm wondering if someone could advise me on how to do this.

I'm attaching a jpeg of an example similar to what I'm trying to do. It is the opening of the second movement of Charles Ives's 4th Symphony in which the clarinets and piano are playing at 6/8 and dotted quarter = 50, while the bassoons are in 7/4 and quarter = 70.

I am not concerned about playback, just being able to get it right visually so there are no barlines where there shouldn't be and I can control the time signature placement and where the notes are placed, etc.

I appreciate any help that can be offered.

[motet]

That's really a tough one in Finale, where the vertical alignment of beats is pretty sacrosanct. There are various things like least common multiples, independent time signatures, hiding barlines and replacing with fake ones, and superimposed systems, all fraught, but maybe someone knows something better than I. I guess I'd be inclined to do the two meters separately and combine them graphically somehow.

[Peter Thomsen]

I am trying to notate a passage in a score in which, for several measures, one part is in a different meter and tempo from the other parts. All the parts begin in the same meter and tempo, but at one point several parts shift to a faster tempo and different meter while the piano part continues in the same tempo and meter as it was. It soon rejoins the other parts …

Are you an experienced Finale user?
I am not sure how detailed instructions you need.

The better we understand, the better we can help.

There are several solutions.
Which solution is better for you, depends on the actual facts.

Can we persuade you to reveal more specific details?
- what are the time signatures?
- what are the tempi?
- for how many measures?


1) The ultimate solution is Overlapping Systems.
This solution is time consuming (and you do not get correct playback), but it lets you create any (crazy) layout.
You probably do not need to do Overlapping Systems.
I attach a demo with an extreme example where one staff has a sempre accelerando.
This demo was created in Finale:

Staggered_Barlines.gif

2) You probably need a simpler solution than 1).
Hence my questions above.


3) Your example with Charles Ives’s ‘Symphony No. 4’ could be done by letting each system be a one-measure system of 10/4 where the quarters equal the quarters in the Piano (tempo 50 for halves, or 100 for quarters).
In that way each system will contain 2½ measures of 4/4 for the Piano = 1 measure of 7/4 for the Bassoons = 2½ measures of 6/8 for the Clarinets.
To “stretch out” the layout in Bassoons and Clarinets, use hidden tuplets or Independent Time Signatures.
Add false barlines where needed.
Beware all the note accidentals - since the barlines are false barlines.

Depending on the page width and the scaling percentage you also might try twice as much contents in each system:
One (big) measure of 20/4.
In that way each system will contain 5 measures of 4/4 for the Piano = 2 measures of 7/4 for the Bassoons = 5 measures of 6/8 for the Clarinets.

[mac1968]

Many thanks for this. I am pretty experienced with Finale, though I would not say I have "mastered" it. I would welcome as much detail as possible to achieve the results I'm after. The simultaneous measures are only for two short sections of the piece—about six measures total. I'm attaching a screen shot of one page as an example of what I was able to do on an earlier version, but have not been able to replicate or complete successfully—adding the barlines at the end of the first line before the 7-8 was not possible without adding them to the piano part as well.
I appreciate your help!

[Peter Thomsen]

Here is a short demo.

* Take a look at the attached Finale document.

SimultaneousTempi.musx

This is just a beginning, not a finished layout.
In the {7/8 measure} I have adjusted the rhythm layout for Oboe and Percussion.

The notes in the Piano measure are entered as hidden tuplets:
8 Eighths in the space of 27 Eighths

You could add false time signatures and false barlines to the layout.

By The Way:
In a layout with staggered barlines I would NOT use measure numbers.
Just imagine the confusion during a rehearsal.

[mac1968]

Thanks very much. I will go through this and see how it works. Very much appreciated!