Courtesy natural in key signature

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Hector Pascal
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Post by Hector Pascal » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:01 am

Hi all,
At the first bar of my second movement (key of B minor), Finale is putting a "cancel natural sign" in my key sig. I have ticked "hide cautionary clefs, key and time sig" for this bar and the preceding bar (in measure attributes), but the natural sign still persists... Any tips on how to get rid of the f natural? The previous movement ends with a key sig of G major.
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Hector.


Hector Pascal
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Post by Hector Pascal » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:16 am

Update: If I go to Document options and uncheck "Cancel outgoing key signature", then the F natural in the key sig at the beginning of my 2nd movement goes away, however it also removes all key sig cancellations mid-movement which I'd like to keep....

I now am thinking that maybe Finale is correct to put the F natural in the key sig at the beginning of my second movement, and maybe I should not worry about it.

Hector.

Further update:
Unchecking the "In C, display naturals at start of staff system" – seems to have done the trick. Not sure why, because it's in B minor.
HP.

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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:47 am

I think Finale does things like this switching between major and minor. What you've posted seems silly. I always use major keys in the key signature dialog, even if it's minor. I guess there are advantages in making enharmonic choices with MIDI entry if you tell it it's a minor key, but meh. If that's important to you, perhaps you could enter all the notes, then change to the corresponding relative major.
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:55 am

Here's what it does switching from G major to B minor:
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Silly, indeed (in my opinion). But if I move the B minor measure to a new system and hide the cautionary in the first measure's attributes, there's no natural, so perhaps you've done something wrong.
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:02 am

C-sharp major to A-sharp minor: :-)
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zuill
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Post by zuill » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:08 am

Hector Pascal wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:16 am
Further update:
Unchecking the "In C, display naturals at start of staff system" – seems to have done the trick. Not sure why, because it's in B minor.
HP.
That is strange. But at least you've discovered what was causing the problem.

Zuill
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"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:23 am

Seems to be a bug. Only happens if there's a mode change.

Hector's bug aside, has anyone seen this notation of cancelling and then reintroducing the same sharp or flat when there's a mode change? "Behind Bars" doesn't mention it, and I don't think I've ever seen it. It's odd that there's not an option to turn it off in Finale. I wonder if it's even intentional, or if it's just a bug.

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HaraldS
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Post by HaraldS » Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:58 pm

motet wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:23 am
Hector's bug aside, has anyone seen this notation of cancelling and then reintroducing the same sharp or flat when there's a mode change? "Behind Bars" doesn't mention it, and I don't think I've ever seen it. It's odd that there's not an option to turn it off in Finale. I wonder if it's even intentional, or if it's just a bug.
Well, following Finale's internal handling of pitches, I can at least comprehend the way how it works. Finale saves note pitches as (raised/lowered) steps within a given scale. This can be seen in the Edit Frame dialog. If you think of key signatures the same way, cancelling and reintroducing makes sense: e.g. for a single sharp: in G major, it raises the 7th pitch whereas in E minor it raises the 2nd pitch.

It comes down to the question whether you regard a key signature as an alteration of absolute pitches (no reintroducing necessary, f# stays f#) or if you regard it as a tonal information about a scale (if a scale changes, it's cancelled in total and the new one is introduced completly). The word "key signature" suggests the latter, in my opinion.
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motet
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Post by motet » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:11 pm

Well, Finale's internal logic shouldn't influence the notation it produces. It's true that cancelling the old notation down to ground zero and then stating the new one makes some logical sense, but musical notation is not a computer language, and I've never seen something like this in print, so I think it must be an oversight. The fact that there's no option to turn it off adds to my suspicions.

I fired up my old copy of Sibelius 6 and it doesn't do this, for what it's worth.

I'm sure there are some advantages to indicating the proper mode (such as enharmonic choices in MIDI entry, as I say, and perhaps when transposing), but since I like key cancellations but not this, I'll stick to using major key signatures exclusively.
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