Hairpins crossing systems - A Lament

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RVS Lee
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Post by RVS Lee » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:02 pm

Hey Folks -

I think I've asked this before (re previous versions) but given the changes to hairpin options in v 25 (which I'm running), is there no way to change the opening aperture (of the continuation) when a hairpin splits across systems? It's one of those dumb personal preferences that has mutated into an obsession, and I'd rather spend my hours in therapy on something else.

Many thanks as always!

RVSL


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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:08 pm

Don't think there is, and there probably should be a setting for that and others too for hairpins. But what Finale does is pretty standard, at least according to examples in Gould and my experience. But I'm curious about your special preferences. An illustration?
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N Grossingink
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Post by N Grossingink » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:12 pm

Dorico allows adjustment of hairpin openings on both sides of a system break. This is not to recommend the software, which is another big can of worms altogether. Still, you could try the 30 day demo. Maybe the concepts of Dorico will appeal to you. Go to the Dorico Forum and do a little lurking.
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RVS Lee
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Post by RVS Lee » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:29 pm

Thanks Guys -

I guess that I may have to get comfortable in Lua and write something myself. (Yeah, right.)

I have followed Dorico from the beginning, but I am also very stuck in my ways (been working with Finale since '92.) I don't relish the idea of learning a new workflow to add to those for Sib and Score.

John, my preference would be to restart the hairpin whenever it crosses a system. Fin already defaults beginning the continuation right aligned to the clef (or KS or TS.) (Re)starting the hairpin to the left of the music feels sufficient to give the sense of continuation.

Thanks again!!

RVSL

Gareth Green
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Post by Gareth Green » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:22 pm

RVS Lee wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:29 pm
... my preference would be to restart the hairpin whenever it crosses a system. Fin already defaults beginning the continuation right aligned to the clef (or KS or TS.) (Re)starting the hairpin to the left of the music feels sufficient to give the sense of continuation.
Taking off my music prep hat for a moment and putting on my sightreading-on-the-gig-jobbing-musician hat, I really wouldn't want to come across that. May be just a matter of personal preference … although Gardner Read is very specific that the hairpins should be open on continuations. [pp254-255]
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motet
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Post by motet » Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:38 pm

Finale does let you adjust the angle of the hairpin. Right-click on its handle and pick Edit. Don't know if that does what you want.

RVS Lee
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Post by RVS Lee » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:56 pm

Gareth -

I make no claim that my personal pref is anything other than that, and I do know that per Gould, Read, and any number of house styles I have on my machine, an open cresc continuation is pretty standard.

Thanks for giving me more to think about; i'd be very interested in how you apprehend hairpins 'on the fly' and what about a closed continuation trips you up. I sometimes have a 'wait, what was that?' moment when I see an open continuation, specifically when there are other angled lines in use (ex: gradual pedal release.) I just find it easier when I can 'grab' an unambiguous hairpin in totality.

Thanks again!

RVSL

Anders Hedelin
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:47 am

An open continuation of a hairpin is the standard signal for it being continuated. A closed continuation would be something like a hyphenated word without a hyphen. Confusing, simply.

Also, two adjacent, closed hairpins signal that there should be a restart of the cresc./dim. at the second one, which is something quite different from a simple continuation.
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Gareth Green
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Post by Gareth Green » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:57 am

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:47 am
An open continuation of a hairpin is the standard signal for it being continuated. A closed continuation would be something like a hyphenated word without a hyphen. Confusing, simply.

Also, two adjacent, closed hairpins signal that there should be a restart of the cresc./dim. at the second one, which is something quite different from a simple continuation.
Explains it more succinctly than I could have; thanks.
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MikeHalloran
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Post by MikeHalloran » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:21 pm

Nothing quite like the experience of spending extra rehearsal time trying to figure out the “personal preferences” of a composer Or arranger. Had to do that a few times over the holidays. What a time wasting pain...

Ok, I cringe when I look at some of my earliest scores (now over 50 years old—yikes!). Fortunately, I had an orchestration teacher in college who not only didn’t let me get away with such crap but explained why.
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RVS Lee
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Post by RVS Lee » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:05 pm

Dear All -
I wasn't going to respond after the straightforward answers from Gareth and Mike, but I thought it might be useful to post precisely what I'm talking about...

So, two random measures from Horatio Parker's "Hora novissima" with the finale default, and with something that I find clearer (and which has never produced controversy or taken up time in rehearsal.)
Hairpin Finale.jpg

hairpin RVSL.jpg

RMK
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Post by RMK » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:19 pm

You may indeed find this clearer, but as an orchestral librarian for over a quarter century, I predict that the vast majority of musicians would interpret this as two separate crescendi, with a drop in dynamic at the second measure.

RVS Lee
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Post by RVS Lee » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:30 pm

Mike -
I accept that I'm 'crazy' in this case and am always happy to accept the advice of my peers (well not always, but this time, certainly.)
RVSL
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motet
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Post by motet » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:31 pm

I'll join others and say I don't understand why you think restarting the hairpin is clearer. Is it not obvious what the normal continued hairpin (version 1 above) means? In my opinion, restarting, while perhaps more pleasing to your eye, is in fact less clear, since there's the ambiguity of restarting the crescendo, as others have said. If the system break were not there, you wouldn't restart the crescendo. Notation should be the same whether there's a system break or not.

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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:55 pm

I am not trying to pile on, RVS Lee, but I am in complete agreement with the previous comments and do urge you to follow what has been standard practice for two centuries. Our notational system in all its many details represents the collective wisdom of many musicians and engravers over many years and at this point it is almost impossible for a single individual to change it for the better.
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Gareth Green
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Post by Gareth Green » Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:16 pm

All of that having been said, I think there are grounds for wishing to have more control over the continuation hairpin. There have been occasions on which I would have liked to have been able to change the starting gap on the continuation hairpin ...
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Anders Hedelin
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:29 pm

I really agree with you, John. The innovations of notation in recent times has been more about particulars, like symbols for new techniques incorporated into common usage. Some of them simple and unambiguous as the Bartok pizzicato, others with some variety of notation, as clusters, but nevertheless indispensable.

When it comes to changing the core of traditional notation, as fx. the use of closed vs. open hairpins, I simply don't see the point.
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John Ruggero
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Post by John Ruggero » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:40 am

Thanks, Anders. Yes, new notations will be accepted or discarded according to the same evolutionary process as before, by common agreement. But reinventing the wheel will never succeed in an art form that is so reliant on a universally-accepted notational language.
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pellegrin42
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Post by pellegrin42 » Sun Mar 12, 2023 4:58 pm

Any updates on this? RVSL is not crazy at all. This is a large and obvious shortfall in the program.

pellegrin42
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Post by pellegrin42 » Sun Mar 12, 2023 5:01 pm

I just found a solution. Insert the hairpin in scroll view. Then it shows up with the open continuation hairpin on the next system.

Gareth Green
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Post by Gareth Green » Sun Mar 12, 2023 5:10 pm

pellegrin42 wrote:
Sun Mar 12, 2023 5:01 pm
I just found a solution. Insert the hairpin in scroll view. Then it shows up with the open continuation hairpin on the next system.
I think you may have misunderstood the OP's starting question. What he wanted was to NOT have the gap at the start of the continuation hairpin on the new system, even though in scroll view it's one continuous hairpin...
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