Chord symbols in Anglo-American countries and elsewhere

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Anders Hedelin
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:48 pm

I had a proof-reading job where there were some, for me, strange chord symbols. They were that strange that I will not show them here, but I have a question, below. When I look into the internet I find a lot of pages which seem to be Anglo-American and their recommendation for a half-diminished chord like C-Eb-Gb-Bb is Cm7b5 (the b's are meant as flats). Now, in Scandinavia we are used to the notation Cm7-5 (the hyphen meaning a minus sign really).

I really don't have any wish to delve into a discussion of what is "right" or "wrong" with this, but here's my question: Is the notation Cm7-5 generally known in Anglo-American practice? Or is it more typical of Scandinavian (European) usage?
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Post by michelp » Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:47 pm

Cm7-5 doesn't seem to be frequently used.
I see Cm7b5 or Cm7(b5) (see the New Real Books), C-7b5, C-7(b5) or C ø (convenient compact form).
Even in Europe (where I also live, in Belgium), Cm7-5 doesn't seem commonly used.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:57 pm

Thanks, Michelp. Well, here's one of the strange chord symbols - strange to me that is: Cm7 5÷ obviously meaning Cm7b5 or Cm7-5.
Is this commonly known anywhere, in any country?
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Post by miker » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:08 pm

Nothing I’ve ever seen.
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Post by michelp » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:09 pm

I have never seen that one.
There are some strange "animals" out there. In Germany (where H is B natural and B is Bb), you can see Hj7 (for B Maj7)...
https://www.songsguitar.com/hmaj7-guitar-gitarre/
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Post by HaraldS » Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:56 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:48 pm
Is the notation Cm7-5 generally known in Anglo-American practice? Or is it more typical of Scandinavian (European) usage?
I never saw it in Anglo-American music, but I saw it a lot in German sheet music from the 1950-1980s. Using a "-" instead of a flat is a historic practice which tends to disappear, which is good. I definitely encourage my music theory students to use a flat.
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Post by oldmkvi » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:01 pm

Clare Fisher, among others, favours the + and - instead of # and b in Chord Symbols.
I personally like the Berklee thing of Triangle for Major Seventh, and the Circle with Slash for Half Diminished.
There is very little agreement among Musicians and Chord Symbols...
I don't like the # and b Symbols because I don't know how to Sharp a Flat, or Flat a Sharp note, but I do get how to Raise or Lower an Extension.
Also, I think Chords should list their extensions completely, so the's no guess work.
I would generally write, say, G13+11 or G13-5, not G7+11 or G7-5.
That includes the Major 9th, and indicates which upper-structure Major Triads and Scales are available.
Otherwise it's unclear and unstated if there would be a ninth or Lowered Ninth or Raised 9th involved.
Or b13.
Hmmm, b13 or augmented 5th...
There's a couple of days worth of discussion right there!

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Post by michelp » Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:28 pm

oldmkvi wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:01 pm
There is very little agreement among Musicians and Chord Symbols...
At least everyone will agree on that.
oldmkvi wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:01 pm
I personally like the Berklee thing of Triangle for Major Seventh, and the Circle with Slash for Half Diminished.
I use them, too. And they save horizontal space.

My (personal) preference goes to associate the - sign to minor, and I reserve it to the (minor) third.
In this logic -5 would be a minor fifth (ouch !), instead of the common spelling of a diminished fifth. So I rather use b5.
(Musicians don't seem to complain).

Anyway, we'll agree that we all can't agree ;)
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Post by peerlessnerd » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:59 am

I use minus plus - +, flat sharp b #, and all the other associated graphic symbols as per the desires of my clients.
For my students I use - + exclusively to avoid confusion when half diminished "flat 5" chords contain three double flats, as in Cb half-diminished 7 (Cb Ebb Gbb Bbb)

It is similarly confusing for students when a "flat 9" is not a flat, but a natural as in "C-sharp 7 flat 9, C#7(b9) C# E# G# B D

Thus, pertaining to "chord extensions"

+ is "raised" not "sharp"
- is "lowered" not "flat"

Students are similarly confused when plus and minus are used do describe chord "textures" in place of minor and major, such as A minor 9 written as A-9 ACEGB, which does not include a "flat 9".

Writing C+9 is a similar issue; potentially vague.

As I recall (and I may be in error) the practice of using - + to define chord textures was developed at Berklee in the 1950s.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:34 pm

peerlessnerd wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:59 am
I use minus plus - +, flat sharp b #, and all the other associated graphic symbols as per the desires of my clients.
For my students I use - + exclusively to avoid confusion when half diminished "flat 5" chords contain three double flats, as in Cb half-diminished 7 (Cb Ebb Gbb Bbb)
Thanks peerlessnerd. That would be my approach too.

And thanks to you all. I think I've got a picture now.
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Post by MikeHalloran » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:24 pm

oldmkvi wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 2:01 pm
Clare Fisher, among others, favours tho + and - instead of # and b in Chord Symbols.
I personally like the Berklee thing of Triangle for Major Seventh, and the Circle with Slash for Half Diminished.
...
You left out ° for diminished 7th (Shift Option 8 on a Mac).

I played over a hundred banjo/guitar show books during the 40 years I was active. The well written books follow that convention as do most of my fake books.

This is the first I’ve ever seen it called Berklee, We always called it Broadway, jazz or fake book chords.

I’ve not played a show in 11 years nor will I again because of my handicap so I have no idea what they’re doing nowadays. On the rare occasions I prepare a lead sheet, it depends on the players. I would hate to have to explain to my church musicians what those symbols mean.
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Post by David Ward » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:47 pm

As I never use chord symbols in my own music, it's always fascinating - if for me a little arcane - to read this kind of thread.

Back in the later 1960s to early 1970s I did some work (for a suitable fee) on the edge of the pop/rock/folk world and must then have understood the language of these symbols with more confidence than I seem to feel now.

A recent (ongoing indeed - performance tentatively planned for late 2021) theatrical piece of mine has parts for both a dramatic mezzo and a Scottish traditional singer as mother and daughter. Much of the music for the daughter is lightly accompanied and not totally removed from the folk style. I had thought of adding chord symbols to her set pieces as an aid to the singer's learning the part, but gave up when I was informed (I think on this forum, no less) that there was no recognized chord symbol for an augmented sixth chord, but that it would have to be respelt as a dominant seventh.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:41 pm

David Ward wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:47 pm
I had thought of adding chord symbols to her set pieces as an aid to the singer's learning the part, but gave up when I was informed (I think on this forum, no less) that there was no recognized chord symbol for an augmented sixth chord, but that it would have to be respelt as a dominant seventh.
I once taught harmony in a country where we used to call the augmented sixth chords "geographical" - German, Italian and French. Chord symbols are not that theoretically precise, they just identify the chord in the most pragmatic way possible. (In traditional harmony the theoretically correct way to explain the "German" chord is a dominant of the dominant in the form of a diminished seventh chord with a diminished third in the bass - but that wouldn't do in chord symbol practice, would it.)
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Post by MikeHalloran » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:44 pm

I have to deal with the horror show that is CCLI charts. Goodgawd what a mess. Thank goodness for Preview on the Mac which lets me replace the chord symbols with those that make sense as fast as I can work.
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Post by ttw » Thu Jan 30, 2020 9:16 pm

As I mostly write for myself (for listening) and the computer (for performing), I have used my own Augmented Sixth symbols. I use (in any key) I6, G6, and F6; also N6 for the Neapolitan. I think I got these from some theory book some time back. I try to write out anything in normal notation as that's less ambiguous and lots easier to read. In sketches (napkins, towels, newspaper margins...) where I don't have much room, I have used a mix of Roman Numerals and figured bass.

I have usually made a distinction between tritone substitutions and traditional Augmented Sixths as these are (usually) used differently. Augmented Sixths are another chord used in a predominant string. Tritone substitutions are replacements for dominants. A French Sixth resolves differently from a Dominant Seventh with a flat fifth. The F6 uses simultaneous ascending and descending half steps to reach a (perhaps secondary) dominant. The V7b5 resolves the tritone but moves the bass to the root of I. (I did find lots of writing on the 'net which confounds this difference. People seem to forget that movement defines chord meaning not stasis or names.)

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Post by John Ruggero » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:47 am

The best explanation of "altered chords" that I have encountered is Schenker's: they are created by chromatic passing tones.

In the case of the augmented sixth chords, a chromatic passing tone decorates three standard dominant-tonic progressions from starting vii, V7 and vii07. Composers found (that) they could eliminate the initial chord tone (bracketed in the example) and start off directly with the passing tone, since these progressions are so common (that) our mind supplies the missing note of origin, just as we "hear" certain words (that are) not actually present, like the two “that”s and "that are" previously used in the sentence.
Aug 6ths.jpeg
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I read at Wikipedia that Tschaikovsky also considered the augmented 6th chords to be “altered” dominant chords.

Systems of chord labels have trouble with things like augmented 6th chords and such because they are too vertically oriented and don’t deal well with the horizontal aspect in music like passing tones. The old system of figured bass was far superior in that respect.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:08 pm

I'm not sure what Schenker intended by his example. If it's meant as a simple explanation of what an altered dominant is, and how it relates to an unaltered one it's very clear and instructive (barring the passing tone markings).

If the intention was to explain the origin, and 'the why', of these chords, it's sadly unhistorical and inadequate.
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Post by John Ruggero » Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:57 pm

HI Anders. It's my example, not his, but expresses his ideas as I understand them. To me it explains the "why" of these passing harmonies better than anything else I've seen. He was showing their grammatical structure, NOT how they might have arisen historically, since the latter doesn't really effect how we perceive them.

Schenker also felt that the seventh in a dominant seventh chord is always a decorative tone in the common practice style, very often a passing seventh coming from an "understood" previous tonic. He felt that only pure major and minor triads are structural in the common practice style; non-triadic notes are always decorative. Of course, he was not attempting to explain music in which tones are added to chords purely for color.

Thus he would say that the opening chord in Beethoven's Symphony no. 1 is a I chord in C major. (Example 1 below.) The B flat in the chord is a passing seventh from an "understood" C to an A in the IV chord that follows. The piece does not start in the key of F as sometimes suggested. This can be experienced by replacing the B flats in the first chord by Cs and then playing the resulting phrase. (Example 2.) The music sounds the same, only the secondary dominant effect is missing. It becomes clear that the secondary dominant effect is truly secondary and not basic to the way in which the music makes sense.

One could then add the seventh back in on the second quarter beat after the C to create a real passing seventh effect. (Example 3) Then one could omit the first C to return to Beethoven's original version and compare all three versions. (Example 1.) To me they are variations of the same thing, and it becomes clear the the B flat is not an essential part of the chord and does not have the same significance as the C E or G. It is a decorative tone, not a harmonic one. And I hear the same passing effect when the initial C is present (Example 3) and when it is not (Example 1).
Beethoven op 21.jpeg
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sat Feb 01, 2020 5:34 pm

I'm sorry John, but again I have to disagree with you. The opening chord of Beethoven's 1st symphony is amazing just because it is a sudden, blunt dominant seventh chord on a strong beat. And a secondary dominant one at that! With the old-fashioned V8-7 in your third example this effect would be completely lost. So, far from being just ornamental, the seventh in that first, 'mind-opening' chord is essential. And very much a harmonic note, if there ever was one.
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Post by John Ruggero » Sat Feb 01, 2020 11:49 pm

Thanks for your thoughts on this, Anders.

I wasn't talking about the startling effect of the chord, which, as you point out, is exactly why Beethoven omitted the initial C, but how one really experiences many V7's as V8-7's even when the 8 is not present. I gave this example not because of the unusual effect but because it is a famous dominant seventh chord. I probably should have chosen something more ordinary. So take any dominant seventh chord and apply the same procedure. To me, there is no semantic difference between those in which the initial tonic that gives rise to a passing seventh is actually expressed and where it is omitted. But of course there can be expressive differences. Composers of the time chose one or the other form based on various factors such as rhythmic issues or to create special effects like the one in Beethoven's Symphony no. 1

I also wouldn't agree that a startling effect per se makes something more or less harmonic. A seventh is a dissonance and therefore used in a decorative capacity in the common practice style, wherever it appears and with whatever effect. And a decorative effect can be just as expressive as any other. It might be that most expressive effects are ornamental. But just because something creates an unusual effect doesn't change its grammatical meaning. For example, a strongly dissonant appoggiatura can be extremely expressive or startling, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a decoration and ultimately less essential than other more significant but less ear-catching events in the piece.

In the case of the Beethoven Symphony no. 1, we expect a tonic harmony as the first sound since most pieces in this style start that way. But because of the immediate presence of the dissonant B flat the expected tonic is immediately reinterpreted as the dominant of the next chord. Then as the progression continues, we reinterpret the first chord yet again as the true tonic that has begun the progression that leads to the real dominant in measure 4. It is all the expectation and reinterpretation that makes this such a powerful effect and this depends on a musical grammar in which sevenths are dissonant and not structural.

Here is a random but interesting case from Beethoven's Piano Sonata op. 2 no. 3:
Beethoven op 2 no 3 ex 1.jpeg
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Schenker would not consider the seventh in the soprano of bar 3 to be a harmonic tone, but rather a decorative tone since it is dissonant. In this case, it is a passing tone that connects the G in the previous chord to the E in the following one. The fact that there is a silence between the G and the F is what makes this an interesting effect, but that doesn't change the grammatical meaning of the F. In fact, it is the imaginative use of this structure, that is, the idea of interrupting a passing motion with a strong silence, that makes the effect powerful.

Then he drives home the point by making the relationship even more explicit:
Beethoven op 2 no 3 ex 2.jpeg
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And even if Beethoven had not written the melody note G in measure two, but say a D instead, I would still hear the F in measure 3 as a decorative, rather than harmonic tone; in this case, a neighboring tone to the E that begins and ends the phrase.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:30 pm

And thanks for your well-formulated thoughts on this, John!

I do understand, and appreciate, your point about different levels of essentiality, not so far from my own ideas about different structural levels in harmony. From the most detailed one, with many Roman Numerals, figures, slashes and + and – etc., to the broad outline where the essentials are that a phrase starts with T and ends with D, or D T. Now, if you (and Schenker) speak of what is structurally more essential, and not just more essential or significant, I'm with you.

I think the difference we might have is about where we are more comfortable to be - under the surface, among the 'skeletons' of music so to speak, or on the surface, with all its animating and fascinating details. I think I'm rather much of a surface guy in that respect. Or put another way, maybe my reasoning is not always on the surface, but my heart is.
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Post by John Ruggero » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:41 pm

Thanks very much, Anders. I always appreciate your ideas and opinions, and I don't think that our musical ideas are far apart. I too appreciate all the wonderful details in great music and also in the way in which they are sometimes expressed by interesting notation, as you know.

Long ago, I became concerned by the difference between the way I actually experienced music and the way in which it was discussed and analyzed: in amorphous generalities or as a collection of miscellaneous parts that don't fit together in a meaningful way. Schenker's ideas were a revelation to me. Here was a someone who could actually analyze melody as well as harmony and show how every detail of a common practice style piece fits together in a way that is so helpful to a performer. So I view music completely through that lens and tend to bring up his ideas whenever it seems relevant in hopes that others might have the same experience.
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Post by John Ruggero » Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:48 pm

I don't think I really addressed your comments about "structural" vs. significant. For Schenker, everything was significant.

He is sometimes unjustly accused of being more concerned about the "background" than the "foreground" (his terminology.) Yet when you actually read his work, for example, his final and and greatest Free Composition, most of the book is taken up with foreground events. What makes his ideas so important is that he shows how the foreground details are rooted in background events. and that it is only possible to truly understand the surface of great piece of music if one understands the background as well. This is of tremendous importance for performers.

For example, in Chopin's Etude op. 10 no. 12, the left hand accompaniment pattern continuously presents the notes C-D-E flat-D-C (bracketed) This is turns out to be the basic melodic structure of the whole piece (starred):
Chopin op 10 no 12.jpeg
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Once a pianist realizes the significance of these apparently insignificant left hand passing tones, they will play the left hand with much more clarity and expressivity and not the over-pedaled muddle one so often hears. And the significance of the rising notes C D E natural in the last two measures of the example becomes clear once one understand its relationship to the main motive of the piece.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:59 pm

Thanks very much for your kind reply earlier, John.

I think I have something to mull over there. Not that Schenker and his ideas are quite new to me - I have myself used his analysis of the very same Chopin etude in music analysis seminars.

But there's always that question of how, or how much, should the apparent motivic work (motivische Arbeit) in Classicist and Romantic music be demonstrated in a performance? Impossible to tell generally, I would think. And perhaps that's also the truly fascinating thing with these motivic correspondences: You always have to wonder how much one thing is meant to be in the background, or middle-ground, or 'close to almost foreground'. Schoenberg had his 'Hauptstimme', 'Nebenstimme' and 'Haupt-Nebenstimme' - three levels only (four if you count the unmarked parts)! - well, there you are.
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Post by John Ruggero » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:01 am

It sounds like our ideas are even closer together on this one than I realized, Anders.

In answer to the issue that you raised, I tell my piano students that experiencing relationships of this type makes one a better musician in general, and this will improve whatever they play. But trying to "bring something out" or doing anything obvious usually leads to distortion.
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