Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

General notation questions, including advanced notation, formatting, etc., go here.

Moderators: miker, Peter Thomsen

Post Reply
User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:43 am
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Mac

Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by OCTO » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:44 am

Friends,
Is it possible to use a custom beat duration in the Time Signature? So instead to write 9/16 measure, I would need to have it as 3/♪. time signature.
I have tried to figure out this in TS settings but avail.

Thank you.
www.notat.io - A Forum devoted to the Practice of Music Notation

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

by Sponsor

Forum Sponsor
 

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:43 am
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by OCTO » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:19 am

If I could "access" the beat duration (denominator) in order to change it to another value (let us say 4/7) than I could swap number 7 in a custom font with the symbol ♪.

Or if I could hide denominator, than I could add a custom Expression positioned under the nominator.

Also, is it possible to change the Time Signature font in the middle of the document?
www.notat.io - A Forum devoted to the Practice of Music Notation

User avatar
michelp
Posts: 1577
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:35 pm
Finale Version: 26.3, 25.5 Mojave
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by michelp » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:37 pm

You can (Document options -> Time Signature) give the denominator a huge vertical value, so that it gets ejected out of the page. Then use an expression for the note.
Michel
MacOsX 10.14.6, Finale 26.3.1, 25.5, Mac Mini Intel Dual Core i7 3Ghz, 16 Go Ram. Azerty kb. Full TGTools. MOTU Midi Express XT USB, Roland Sound Canvas SC-88vl, MOTU Audio Express. 2 monitors (27' pivot, 24')

User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 5420
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v26.3.1.643
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:51 pm

OCTO wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:19 am
… is it possible to change the Time Signature font in the middle of the document? …
No, the Time Signature font is a document setting.
Mac OS X 10.14.6 (Mojave), Finale user since 1996

User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 5420
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v26.3.1.643
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by Peter Thomsen » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:02 pm

Attached is a demo document that shows, how you can create a “note denominator”.

CarlOrffTimeSignature.musx
(13.79 KiB) Downloaded 69 times

NB:
You need to add an expression on every measure with a time signature symbol.
If your score has many time signature changes, then you are in for a lot of work!
Mac OS X 10.14.6 (Mojave), Finale user since 1996

Anders Hedelin
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Windows

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by Anders Hedelin » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:57 pm

It might be something worth trying to put the TS above staff as the denominator note shape doesn't quite readily agree with the staff lines.
Time signatures.JPG
Time signatures.JPG (11.05 KiB) Viewed 1932 times
(By hiding the real TS and substituting it with a shape expression. The shape expression may easily be duplicated to change either the numerator or the denominator, or both.)
Finale 26.1
Windows 7 and 10

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:43 am
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by OCTO » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:01 am

Thank you both!

Finale has an option for "display" signature, and I am not sure why they never implemented that it actually could accept any symbol, even 5/x or y/♪. or x/y time signature. That would be of a huge advantage.
www.notat.io - A Forum devoted to the Practice of Music Notation

User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 5420
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v26.3.1.643
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by Peter Thomsen » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:49 am

OCTO wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:01 am
…Finale has an option for "display" signature, and I am not sure why they never implemented, that it actually could accept any symbol, even 5/x or y/♪. or x/y time signature. That would be of a huge advantage.
That sounds like a good idea for a feature request:

A more versatile “Different Time Signature for Display”, with a “note denominator”.

(a. k. a. “Carl Orff Time Signature”)
Mac OS X 10.14.6 (Mojave), Finale user since 1996

User avatar
John Ruggero
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:41 am
Finale Version: Finale 2015.5
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by John Ruggero » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:16 pm

Can Dorico do the note denominator?
2014 Mac mini (OS 10.12) with dual monitors, Finale 25.5, GPO 4, InDesign CS4, SmartScore X Pro, JW Plug-ins, TG Tools, Keyboard maestro
www.cantilenapress.com

"The better the composer, the better the notation."

BuonTempi
Posts: 784
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am
Finale Version: Finale 25
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by BuonTempi » Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:45 pm

John Ruggero wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:16 pm
Can Dorico do the note denominator?
Yes. There's a setting in the preference panel for selected signatures, and in Engraving Options for the default choice.
Screenshot 5.png
Screenshot 5.png (16.06 KiB) Viewed 1882 times

Anders Hedelin
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Windows

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by Anders Hedelin » Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:38 pm

So, if you would want the TS on the staff and not above, here's another go, with a more neutral font for the numerator which I personally think matches the note shape better:
Time signature denominators 2.JPG
Time signature denominators 2.JPG (11.81 KiB) Viewed 1862 times
Waiting for Finale to implement it, you have the options to create the note shape denominator only as a shape expression, or the whole TS, as I did (and then having to give extra space at the beginning of the measure). Either way, this would be so much easier if it were a utility in the program.
Finale 26.1
Windows 7 and 10

Nick Mazuk
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:29 am
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by Nick Mazuk » Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:49 pm

Created a Feature request:

https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/ ... ay-As-Note

Not sure if it will do anything, but worth a try.
Nick

BuonTempi
Posts: 784
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:59 am
Finale Version: Finale 25
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by BuonTempi » Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:56 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:38 pm
Waiting for Finale to implement it...
We've all joined the "wait list", right?
Image

User avatar
miker
Posts: 4369
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by miker » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:09 pm

Nick Mazuk wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:49 pm
Created a Feature request:

https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/ ... ay-As-Note

Not sure if it will do anything, but worth a try.
It’s good to have a dream!
Finale 26 | SmartScorePro X2
Mac OS 10.13 High Sierra
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

User avatar
HaraldS
Posts: 179
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:46 am
Finale Version: 25.5
Operating System: Windows

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by HaraldS » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:49 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:38 pm
Waiting for Finale to implement it, you have the options to create the note shape denominator only as a shape expression, or the whole TS, as I did (and then having to give extra space at the beginning of the measure).
But the extra space is given already, as the true time signature is moved off page, if I understand correctly?
I imagine a plug-in could do that: move the TS off page and inserting shape expressions, either looking like normal TSs or the Carl-Orff-style TS. Probably, a new expression category would need to be created.
Finale 3.0-25.5, German edition, Windows 7
trombonist, pianist, conductor / Recklinghausen, Germany

Anders Hedelin
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Windows

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by Anders Hedelin » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:01 pm

HaraldS wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:49 pm
But the extra space is given already, as the true time signature is moved off page, if I understand correctly?
I imagine a plug-in could do that: move the TS off page and inserting shape expressions, either looking like normal TSs or the Carl-Orff-style TS. Probably, a new expression category would need to be created.
You are right, I have earlier taken the more unpractical path to hide the TSs. No need for that obviously, and thanks for the tip.

You can create a new expression category, or create one TS with appropriate positioning, and then duplicate it to change the elements.
Finale 26.1
Windows 7 and 10

Nick Mazuk
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:29 am
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by Nick Mazuk » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:12 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:01 pm
HaraldS wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:49 pm
But the extra space is given already, as the true time signature is moved off page, if I understand correctly?
I imagine a plug-in could do that: move the TS off page and inserting shape expressions, either looking like normal TSs or the Carl-Orff-style TS. Probably, a new expression category would need to be created.
You are right, I have earlier taken the more unpractical path to hide the TSs. No need for that obviously, and thanks for the tip.

You can create a new expression category, or create one TS with appropriate positioning, and then duplicate it to change the elements.
What I would do is only move the denominator off-screen, then make the new category for the displayed notes. That way, you can use fewer expressions. For instance, if you only go between 4/4, 3/4, and 2/4, you can have one expression for the denominator, and the numerator changes with the time signature. Fewer steps, less work, same results.

These are the settings that worked well with me. All units are spaces. If you make sure the "Score List" selected displays on all staves, it also saves you the trouble of placing the expression on every staff.
Screen Shot 2020-02-16 at 12.10.45 PM.png
Screen Shot 2020-02-16 at 12.10.45 PM.png (59.31 KiB) Viewed 1826 times
Screen Shot 2020-02-16 at 12.10.58 PM.png
Screen Shot 2020-02-16 at 12.10.58 PM.png (131.63 KiB) Viewed 1826 times
Nick

User avatar
motet
Posts: 4213
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005
Operating System: Windows

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by motet » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:05 pm

Useful posting, but you should probably say that your offset units are spaces.

With two-digit numerators or a dotted or flagged denominator, the horizontal offset will be a bit different, so a category positioning which covers everything may be a little optimistic.

It might be a good idea to make the note a little smaller, which will provide a little daylight between the numerator and the note:
Attachments
0222.png
0222.png (25.16 KiB) Viewed 1820 times

Nick Mazuk
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:29 am
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by Nick Mazuk » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:17 pm

motet wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:05 pm
With two-digit numerators or a dotted or flagged denominator, the horizontal offset will be a bit different, so a category positioning which covers everything may be a little optimistic.
I think it depends on whether you want it to be left-aligned or center-aligned. Both are valid, I think it's just a matter of taste. Depending on which you choose, I think you can have a single category positioning that covers everything.

On the other hand, having two expressions (one for q and one for q.) isn't terribly combersome.

I like the idea of making the notes slightly smaller.
Nick

User avatar
motet
Posts: 4213
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005
Operating System: Windows

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by motet » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:43 pm

You'd think center aligned would work, but I tried numerators of 4 and 12 and the offsets were different.

Nick Mazuk
Posts: 180
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:29 am
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by Nick Mazuk » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:51 pm

motet wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:43 pm
You'd think center aligned would work, but I tried numerators of 4 and 12 and the offsets were different.
Didn't think about that. Makes sense.
Nick

Anders Hedelin
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Windows

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by Anders Hedelin » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:22 am

I did some experimenting with TS note fonts. IMHO the heavier flags of Opus harmonize better with the Baroque digits of Maestro:
TS denominators 3.JPG
TS denominators 3.JPG (32.27 KiB) Viewed 1778 times
The positioning problem seems even worse than pointed out in previous posts - I discovered that the note position changes with the measure width too.
Finale 26.1
Windows 7 and 10

User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 5420
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v26.3.1.643
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:07 am

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:22 am
… the Baroque digits of Maestro …
The time signature digits in Maestro are very heavy.
For a “lighter” look, try, as Time Signature Font, a music font with lighter digits - e. g. Petrucci.

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:22 am
… The positioning problem seems even worse than pointed out in previous posts - I discovered that the note position changes with the measure width too …
Whether the note position changes, depends on how the expression’s Positioning is defined.




Take a look at the Finale (demo) document I posted two days ago.
My document uses Petrucci as Time Signature Font - and the {note denominator} expression does not change position with the measure width.
Mac OS X 10.14.6 (Mojave), Finale user since 1996

User avatar
OCTO
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:43 am
Finale Version: 25
Operating System: Mac

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by OCTO » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:58 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:49 am
OCTO wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:01 am
…Finale has an option for "display" signature, and I am not sure why they never implemented, that it actually could accept any symbol, even 5/x or y/♪. or x/y time signature. That would be of a huge advantage.
That sounds like a good idea for a feature request:

A more versatile “Different Time Signature for Display”, with a “note denominator”.

(a. k. a. “Carl Orff Time Signature”)
It was a long time ago a feature request. Back several years ago. They still keep "considering".
www.notat.io - A Forum devoted to the Practice of Music Notation

Anders Hedelin
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:34 am
Finale Version: Finale 26
Operating System: Windows

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Post by Anders Hedelin » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:50 pm

Peter Thomsen wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:07 am
Whether the note position changes, depends on how the expression’s Positioning is defined.
...
My document uses Petrucci as Time Signature Font - and the {note denominator} expression does not change position with the measure width.
Ok, thanks. I still prefer the Opus notes, together with Petrucci numerators as well.
Finale 26.1
Windows 7 and 10

Post Reply