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Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:44 am
by OCTO
Friends,
Is it possible to use a custom beat duration in the Time Signature? So instead to write 9/16 measure, I would need to have it as 3/♪. time signature.
I have tried to figure out this in TS settings but avail.

Thank you.

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:19 am
by OCTO
If I could "access" the beat duration (denominator) in order to change it to another value (let us say 4/7) than I could swap number 7 in a custom font with the symbol ♪.

Or if I could hide denominator, than I could add a custom Expression positioned under the nominator.

Also, is it possible to change the Time Signature font in the middle of the document?

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:37 pm
by michelp
You can (Document options -> Time Signature) give the denominator a huge vertical value, so that it gets ejected out of the page. Then use an expression for the note.

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 12:51 pm
by Peter Thomsen
OCTO wrote:
Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:19 am
… is it possible to change the Time Signature font in the middle of the document? …
No, the Time Signature font is a document setting.

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:02 pm
by Peter Thomsen
Attached is a demo document that shows, how you can create a “note denominator”.

CarlOrffTimeSignature.musx
(13.79 KiB) Downloaded 190 times

NB:
You need to add an expression on every measure with a time signature symbol.
If your score has many time signature changes, then you are in for a lot of work!

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:57 pm
by Anders Hedelin
It might be something worth trying to put the TS above staff as the denominator note shape doesn't quite readily agree with the staff lines.
Time signatures.JPG
Time signatures.JPG (11.05 KiB) Viewed 7800 times
(By hiding the real TS and substituting it with a shape expression. The shape expression may easily be duplicated to change either the numerator or the denominator, or both.)

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:01 am
by OCTO
Thank you both!

Finale has an option for "display" signature, and I am not sure why they never implemented that it actually could accept any symbol, even 5/x or y/♪. or x/y time signature. That would be of a huge advantage.

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:49 am
by Peter Thomsen
OCTO wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:01 am
…Finale has an option for "display" signature, and I am not sure why they never implemented, that it actually could accept any symbol, even 5/x or y/♪. or x/y time signature. That would be of a huge advantage.
That sounds like a good idea for a feature request:

A more versatile “Different Time Signature for Display”, with a “note denominator”.

(a. k. a. “Carl Orff Time Signature”)

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:16 pm
by John Ruggero
Can Dorico do the note denominator?

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:45 pm
by BuonTempi
John Ruggero wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:16 pm
Can Dorico do the note denominator?
Yes. There's a setting in the preference panel for selected signatures, and in Engraving Options for the default choice.
Screenshot 5.png
Screenshot 5.png (16.06 KiB) Viewed 7750 times

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:38 pm
by Anders Hedelin
So, if you would want the TS on the staff and not above, here's another go, with a more neutral font for the numerator which I personally think matches the note shape better:
Time signature denominators 2.JPG
Time signature denominators 2.JPG (11.81 KiB) Viewed 7730 times
Waiting for Finale to implement it, you have the options to create the note shape denominator only as a shape expression, or the whole TS, as I did (and then having to give extra space at the beginning of the measure). Either way, this would be so much easier if it were a utility in the program.

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:49 pm
by Nick Mazuk
Created a Feature request:

https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/ ... ay-As-Note

Not sure if it will do anything, but worth a try.

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:56 pm
by BuonTempi
Anders Hedelin wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:38 pm
Waiting for Finale to implement it...
We've all joined the "wait list", right?
Image

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:09 pm
by miker
Nick Mazuk wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:49 pm
Created a Feature request:

https://makemusic.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/ ... ay-As-Note

Not sure if it will do anything, but worth a try.
It’s good to have a dream!

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:49 pm
by HaraldS
Anders Hedelin wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 5:38 pm
Waiting for Finale to implement it, you have the options to create the note shape denominator only as a shape expression, or the whole TS, as I did (and then having to give extra space at the beginning of the measure).
But the extra space is given already, as the true time signature is moved off page, if I understand correctly?
I imagine a plug-in could do that: move the TS off page and inserting shape expressions, either looking like normal TSs or the Carl-Orff-style TS. Probably, a new expression category would need to be created.

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:01 pm
by Anders Hedelin
HaraldS wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:49 pm
But the extra space is given already, as the true time signature is moved off page, if I understand correctly?
I imagine a plug-in could do that: move the TS off page and inserting shape expressions, either looking like normal TSs or the Carl-Orff-style TS. Probably, a new expression category would need to be created.
You are right, I have earlier taken the more unpractical path to hide the TSs. No need for that obviously, and thanks for the tip.

You can create a new expression category, or create one TS with appropriate positioning, and then duplicate it to change the elements.

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:12 pm
by Nick Mazuk
Anders Hedelin wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:01 pm
HaraldS wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:49 pm
But the extra space is given already, as the true time signature is moved off page, if I understand correctly?
I imagine a plug-in could do that: move the TS off page and inserting shape expressions, either looking like normal TSs or the Carl-Orff-style TS. Probably, a new expression category would need to be created.
You are right, I have earlier taken the more unpractical path to hide the TSs. No need for that obviously, and thanks for the tip.

You can create a new expression category, or create one TS with appropriate positioning, and then duplicate it to change the elements.
What I would do is only move the denominator off-screen, then make the new category for the displayed notes. That way, you can use fewer expressions. For instance, if you only go between 4/4, 3/4, and 2/4, you can have one expression for the denominator, and the numerator changes with the time signature. Fewer steps, less work, same results.

These are the settings that worked well with me. All units are spaces. If you make sure the "Score List" selected displays on all staves, it also saves you the trouble of placing the expression on every staff.
Screen Shot 2020-02-16 at 12.10.45 PM.png
Screen Shot 2020-02-16 at 12.10.45 PM.png (59.31 KiB) Viewed 7694 times
Screen Shot 2020-02-16 at 12.10.58 PM.png
Screen Shot 2020-02-16 at 12.10.58 PM.png (131.63 KiB) Viewed 7694 times

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:05 pm
by motet
Useful posting, but you should probably say that your offset units are spaces.

With two-digit numerators or a dotted or flagged denominator, the horizontal offset will be a bit different, so a category positioning which covers everything may be a little optimistic.

It might be a good idea to make the note a little smaller, which will provide a little daylight between the numerator and the note:

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:17 pm
by Nick Mazuk
motet wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:05 pm
With two-digit numerators or a dotted or flagged denominator, the horizontal offset will be a bit different, so a category positioning which covers everything may be a little optimistic.
I think it depends on whether you want it to be left-aligned or center-aligned. Both are valid, I think it's just a matter of taste. Depending on which you choose, I think you can have a single category positioning that covers everything.

On the other hand, having two expressions (one for q and one for q.) isn't terribly combersome.

I like the idea of making the notes slightly smaller.

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:43 pm
by motet
You'd think center aligned would work, but I tried numerators of 4 and 12 and the offsets were different.

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:51 pm
by Nick Mazuk
motet wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:43 pm
You'd think center aligned would work, but I tried numerators of 4 and 12 and the offsets were different.
Didn't think about that. Makes sense.

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:22 am
by Anders Hedelin
I did some experimenting with TS note fonts. IMHO the heavier flags of Opus harmonize better with the Baroque digits of Maestro:
TS denominators 3.JPG
TS denominators 3.JPG (32.27 KiB) Viewed 7646 times
The positioning problem seems even worse than pointed out in previous posts - I discovered that the note position changes with the measure width too.

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:07 am
by Peter Thomsen
Anders Hedelin wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:22 am
… the Baroque digits of Maestro …
The time signature digits in Maestro are very heavy.
For a “lighter” look, try, as Time Signature Font, a music font with lighter digits - e. g. Petrucci.

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:22 am
… The positioning problem seems even worse than pointed out in previous posts - I discovered that the note position changes with the measure width too …
Whether the note position changes, depends on how the expression’s Positioning is defined.




Take a look at the Finale (demo) document I posted two days ago.
My document uses Petrucci as Time Signature Font - and the {note denominator} expression does not change position with the measure width.

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:58 pm
by OCTO
Peter Thomsen wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:49 am
OCTO wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:01 am
…Finale has an option for "display" signature, and I am not sure why they never implemented, that it actually could accept any symbol, even 5/x or y/♪. or x/y time signature. That would be of a huge advantage.
That sounds like a good idea for a feature request:

A more versatile “Different Time Signature for Display”, with a “note denominator”.

(a. k. a. “Carl Orff Time Signature”)
It was a long time ago a feature request. Back several years ago. They still keep "considering".

Re: Custom beat duration ( 3/♪. )

Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:50 pm
by Anders Hedelin
Peter Thomsen wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:07 am
Whether the note position changes, depends on how the expression’s Positioning is defined.
...
My document uses Petrucci as Time Signature Font - and the {note denominator} expression does not change position with the measure width.
Ok, thanks. I still prefer the Opus notes, together with Petrucci numerators as well.