The last gasp of Finale?

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miker
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Post by miker » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:45 am

Unbelievable. Simply unbelievable.

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Michel R E
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Post by Michel R E » Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:28 am

drama. simply drama.

what's so "unbelievable" about it?
Mac has a bunch of apps that let you make changes in a score and parts which automatically get sent to iPads with their music reader. It's actually quite interesting for ensembles that have the money to buy large e-readers for their musicians.

the string quartet I work with most often use them. they make changes (fingering, bowing, phrasing, etc...) to their parts which can be shown or not to the other musicians independently.
the orchestra I work with most often is looking at making the leap to this type of software/hardware combo.
It would have made life so much easier for me with the last work they performed, when I decided after the fact to add a single measure halfway through the piece. as it was I had to have new parts made, which then had to have fingerings and new bow markings retranscribed by hand into the new arts from the old ones.

if for some reason you think MakeMusic is dropping everything related to Finale to indulge in this new venture, then maybe you should sit down with a nice stiff drink, and relax a bit.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Feb 20, 2020 1:22 pm

I kind of agree with you both, miker and Michel. It sounds reassuring what you tell, Michel, about new possibilities in the communicating with musicians. On the other hand, the fact that MM now is pushing for this might be a bit unnerving to some of us, so I do understand miker too. A stiff drink might be one solution - on a strictly temporary basis of course.
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Post by BuonTempi » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:18 pm

Michel R E wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:28 am
if for some reason you think MakeMusic is dropping everything related to Finale to indulge in this new venture, then maybe you should sit down with a nice stiff drink, and relax a bit.
Five years ago, Peaksware/MakeMusic acquired Weezic, a French ' interactive music practice tool'.
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... res-Weezic

The development of this new Practice app seems to be coming from this company.
"Existing Weezic products will be wound down over the coming months, in order to focus the entire team’s efforts on a web-based solution of SmartMusic."

That should mean that there's nothing to distract the Finale dev team from working flat out to make improvements to Finale. Make of that what you will.

I've read about Finale's imminent demise for 15 years now. I don't think it's going to go away. But I suspect that the constraints on what can be improved without damaging legacy scores are so great that most of the flaws, bugs and limitations are going to remain as they are.
Last edited by BuonTempi on Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by miker » Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:44 pm

Michel R E wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:28 am
if for some reason you think MakeMusic is dropping everything related to Finale to indulge in this new venture, then maybe you should sit down with a nice stiff drink, and relax a bit.
The most recent blog posts have given me no reason to think anything else. All they have spoken about is this new plan. I'll be happy to be proven wrong.
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Post by John Ruggero » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:23 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:18 pm

I've read about Finale's imminent demise for 15 years now. I don't think it's going to go away. But I suspect that the constraints on what can be improved without damaging legacy scores are so great that most of the flaws, bugs and limitations are going to remain as they are.
You may well be right. But somehow those same constraints don't seem to be stopping successful plug-in products like Perfect Layout.
And I understand that the developers of that product are forced to operate with one hand tied behind their backs.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:38 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:18 pm
I've read about Finale's imminent demise for 15 years now. I don't think it's going to go away. But I suspect that the constraints on what can be improved without damaging legacy scores are so great that most of the flaws, bugs and limitations are going to remain as they are.
Quite. One thing I can't understand is why would MM bother with rewriting the code if they didn't have any intention of developing the program? It would seem a complete waste of time and effort if they weren't.

Then I'm a bit puzzled by what you mean by "damaging legacy scores", BuonTempi. I would appreciate it if you could spell it out for me.
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Post by motet » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:36 pm

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:38 pm
One thing I can't understand is why would MM bother with rewriting the code if they didn't have any intention of developing the program? It would seem a complete waste of time and effort if they weren't.
It's not totally clear to me that they have. There are a few very serious bugs that cause people to lose work (e.g. temp files being deleted by the system) that you'd think would be very high priority that they would fix with such a rewrite.

I have no problem with the practice-part feature, but I suspect the development team is small and has devoted all its resources to this other thing rather than to Finale. Only a guess based on the non-appearance of new versions, though.

Finale has enough of a user base that it should always be worth something. When the present ownership tires of it, hopefully someone better will take it over and fix it up.

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Post by miker » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:47 pm

Michel R E wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:28 am
Mac has a bunch of apps that let you make changes in a score and parts which automatically get sent to iPads with their music reader. It's actually quite interesting for ensembles that have the money to buy large e-readers for their musicians.
Michel, which apps are these? I have been using ForScore for years, and it would be nice to have this ability. And I see tablets popping up in choirs and the very few orchestras I deal with, but none of them are going to buy one for everybody. Parts will still need to be printed.
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Post by Michel R E » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:04 pm

I don't remember the names of any apps (not being a Mac user, I didn't bother memorizing).

But for professional orchestras and ensembles, especially ones that travel a fair bit, using e-readers is a huge money saver in the long run, as well as making life easier for the musicians and music librarians.

Imagine having to go from concert to concert, remembering to bring all the materials for the music that on tonight's program? you get to the concert and realize you're missing one part. That won't happen with an e-reader.
The conductor decides to make a change at the last second, it automatically updates in all the parts, no one gets lost, no precious limited rehearsal time is wasted.

Most choirs won't invest, since they are mostly made up of amateur musicians, regardless of the calibre. But it is in the best interest of pro orchestras and ensembles to make this type of technological leap.

Some orchestras are even investing in music stands that are themselves e-readers.
And I've seen some amazing stands for holding up large-format e-readers that basically look like a music stand, while taking up considerably less space and being easier to carry around.
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Post by miker » Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:54 am

Since I don’t work in the circles that you do, my take is different. I certainly can see the advantages if you have the technology to support it.

My complaint is that I can’t see an advantage to me, of Finale using their limited resources to cater to that base, rather than fixing long standing problems. But as I said, I would love to be proven wrong.
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Post by Bill Stevens » Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:32 am

Michael RE wrote:

"Most choirs won't invest"

Probably true, but in Advent candlelight Compline services I am the only person who can see the music. People I barely know cuddle around to peer over my shoulder.

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Post by Michel R E » Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:36 am

miker wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:54 am
Since I don’t work in the circles that you do, my take is different. I certainly can see the advantages if you have the technology to support it.

My complaint is that I can’t see an advantage to me, of Finale using their limited resources to cater to that base, rather than fixing long standing problems. But as I said, I would love to be proven wrong.
in the circles I work with chords and chord symbols, guitar notation, multiple verse lyrics, etc... aren't things I need either. I won't begrudge those who DO need it simply because I see no need for it.

If Finale is meant to be used by professionals (as well), then I see nothing positive in attacking them for creating features that can and will be used by professionals.

You can't see an advantage for yourself. Except you aren't the only Finale user out there.
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Post by motet » Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:31 am

The things Michel describes certainly seem like the wave of the future, but it's unclear to me whether this MakeMusic Practice App embodies any of those. What they describe sounds like it's aimed at the school market--I don't see professionals using it.

What professionals will use is something that stores documents in the cloud that you can mark up by hand with a stylus on a tablet as you would mark a part, something that allows a librarian or section leader to add cuts, bowings, and the like, something that in a rehearsal jumps to the starting point called for by the conductor, and ultimately something that knows where it is in the music being performed and turns electronic pages for everybody automatically.

I don't see much of a hint of any of that in the Practice App. The business about the content owner uploading the file is just a way of distributing parts online, hardly anything special. Coloring mistakes blue is cool for beginners, but again, I don't see professionals using it. Those wishing to play along can do that now by muting their part and pressing the Play button.

Perhaps MakeMusic is going to concentrate on the educational market and leave engraving to Sibelius and Dorico. Otherwise, why let serious, work-losing bugs like the disappearing temp file issue languish for years?

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Post by BuonTempi » Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:52 am

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:38 pm

Then I'm a bit puzzled by what you mean by "damaging legacy scores", BuonTempi. I would appreciate it if you could spell it out for me.
One of Finale's main virtues is that it can open a document from version 1 in version 26 accurately. If MM were to make significant improvements to the spacing of the music, that would adversely affect old scores that rely on the original behaviour.
Anders Hedelin wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:38 pm
One thing I can't understand is why would MM bother with rewriting the code if they didn't have any intention of developing the program? It would seem a complete waste of time and effort if they weren't.
I think they do want to develop it, but there is only so much that they can tinker with. Converting to Unicode and 64-bit means they can keep selling and supporting the app on the latest hardware/OSes. The Slur/Artic thing is a welcome improvement, IMO, though even that received lukewarm enthusiasm on these pages, again because of the problems with old documents and in back-porting new docs to v25.

Choose your favourite bug about grace notes, Layers, ties, lyrics - if they fix it, someone will be complaining that it's ruined all their old documents.
John Ruggero wrote:
Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:23 pm
But somehow those same constraints don't seem to be stopping successful plug-in products like Perfect Layout.
Plug-ins like PL make (automated) manual adjustments to individual documents. They don't change the way that Finale thinks about spacing.

I would love to be proved wrong, and discover that Finale 27 will have Collision Avoidance of all items; Vertical Justification of staves and systems; improved spacing of notes in layers; and all the notational fixes we've been waiting for.

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Post by elbsound » Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:28 am

BuonTempi wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:52 am
I would love to be proved wrong, and discover that Finale 27 will have Collision Avoidance of all items; Vertical Justification of staves and systems; improved spacing of notes in layers; and all the notational fixes we've been waiting for.
All these are things that Perfect Layout already does.

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Post by BuonTempi » Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:05 pm

elbsound wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 10:28 am
All these are things that Perfect Layout already does.
Of course, it's an amazing product, and you deserve to be rewarded for your efforts.

But the fact that users need to buy additional tools like PL, TG Tools, Patterson, etc to achieve timely, productive, professional results is not a cause for rejoicing or even contentment. It effectively renders Finale by itself a 'cut-down' product like Notepad, for which extra payment must be made if you want the full features that other apps provide natively.

Perhaps MM will make you an offer and bundle it with the next version. That would be a start. Even so, the need to press the "fix my score" button, when other apps do it live and automatically, remains a flawed workflow, IMO.

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Post by elbsound » Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:05 pm

Yes, I fully agree with you, BuonTempi.
I had hoped that I could convince MM to a cooperation the several times I have contacted them since 2015 - especially when I visited their headquarters in Boulder last year and gave a presentation of Perfect Layout to the whole Finale team.
But as of today they are not interested.

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Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:03 pm

elbsound wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:05 pm
I had hoped that I could convince MM to a cooperation the several times I have contacted them since 2015 - especially when I visited their headquarters in Boulder last year and gave a presentation of Perfect Layout to the whole Finale team.
But as of today they are not interested.
That could mean one of two things, I guess. A. That they are planning some really astonishing modernization of the program and just want some peace and quiet to do that. B. That they really lost interest in the engraving business.

And here we are, the customers and users, guessing and fretting. That, in it self, may seem to be a very insignificant matter to MM.
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Post by Anders Hedelin » Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:30 pm

BuonTempi wrote:
Fri Feb 21, 2020 9:52 am
One of Finale's main virtues is that it can open a document from version 1 in version 26 accurately. If MM were to make significant improvements to the spacing of the music, that would adversely affect old scores that rely on the original behaviour.
...
Choose your favourite bug about grace notes, Layers, ties, lyrics - if they fix it, someone will be complaining that it's ruined all their old documents.
If I were MM - no, too horrible... In MM's place, I would recommend those with documents from an older version to keep either that version, or one compatible 'middle version' (Finale 12 or 14.5 maybe?). It would be too sad if the possible conversion issues would hamper an effective modernization of Finale.

I remember being impressed by the possibilities of Finale 2003 (and earlier!), but that's not to say that we, the users haven't developed. After so and so many hours of unnecessarily repetitive and tedious work with the program, I'm quite ready for a truly new version.
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Post by Bill Reed » Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:44 am

MM has gotten rid of all their 3rd party contractors, like Robert P, who created the Human Playback system.
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Post by miker » Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:17 am

A post from David Cusick, in the other forum:


Thanks for your feedback here. It appears that the information we have released on our blog about our upcoming sharing and practice platform that includes the redesigned Practice app may have caused some concern that this has detracted away from Finale initiatives. I can see how this may cause some confusion and I can assure you that this is not the case. We still remain very much focused on the strategy we highlighted in our October 2019 post about updating our underlying code to modernize the program. While it’s true that MakeMusic has several products, Finale will remain focused on its goal. The Practice App does not change that.
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Post by BuonTempi » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:35 am

Bill Reed wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:44 am
MM has gotten rid of all their 3rd party contractors, like Robert P, who created the Human Playback system.
What? That's on a par with Avid's sacking of the Sibelius dev team. Robert also created FinaleScript, and God knows what else. Robert Patterson? Jari, too?
miker wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:17 am
We still remain very much focused on the strategy we highlighted in our October 2019 post about updating our underlying code to modernize the program.
If I was CEO in 2010, and someone said "for the next decade, the main feature we're going to offer our customers is 'Code Modernization™', with only a handful of headline UI and productivity improvements, and still keep the most egregious bugs", I would have said "Right, start again from scratch: a new app; and set fire to the old code in some wasteland." Perhaps that's why I'm not a CEO...
Last edited by BuonTempi on Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Anders Hedelin » Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:53 am

BuonTempi wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:35 am
If I was CEO in 2010, and someone said "for the next decade, the main feature we're going to offer our customers is 'Code Modernization™', with only a handful of headline UI and productivity improvements, and still keep the most egregious bugs", I would have said "Right, start again from scratch: a new app; and set fire to the old code in some wasteland." Perhaps that's why I'm not a CEO... :)
Isn't that painting it a bit too black? I got the hyperbole, but was it just a joke...?
The ways of MM being inscrutable, we'll just have to abide...
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Post by BuonTempi » Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:17 am

Anders Hedelin wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:53 am
Isn't that painting it a bit too black? I got the hyperbole, but was it just a joke...?
The ways of MM being inscrutable, we'll just have to abide...
Maybe. Now add another report: "During that decade, we'll face competition from a free, open-source app that produces passable results; a brand new product from an experienced team; as well as the market leader."

Only MM knows how many people 'find value' in the updates, and how many people are staying put. Only they know the market size for pushing stuff by hand round the page.

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