tied over into beginning

[musicus]

In the attached piece I would like to have a tie going into the first
chord (Bb - B) which would be held over from the first ending.
Is there a way to show a tie going into measure 1?

[Anders Hedelin]

Is there a way to show a tie going into measure 1?

If you don't want the repeat to have prima and seconda volta endings, which would take quite a few measures in this case, you could add an extra backwards tie to the first notes in the first measure (which would be quite clear together with your comment).

I know this method is a little circumstantial, but here's what I would do. As there are ties there already you may need a workaround: In the first measure, write a dotted halfnote in layer 3 with the same pitch, value and stem direction as the one already there, give both notes ties and drag those backwards with the Special Tools > Tie Tool.

[Peter Thomsen]

Some ideas for the layout.

test3.jpg (169.8 KiB) Viewed 7140 times

[Anders Hedelin]

This is what I meant:

Repeats with ties.JPG (111.4 KiB) Viewed 7132 times

It seems you have B natural in the same 'chord' as B flat. Take a look at Peter's spelling and see if that's what you want.

[John Ruggero]

Second attempt. Hope it is right this time:

repeats.jpeg (71.15 KiB) Viewed 7115 times

If you really want the B naturals, you should add natural signs, or renotate as C-flats as in Peters example.

[Anders Hedelin]

Hm, it seems that we have a different reading of the the repeat. The first four bars in the right hand is for the repeat only, isn't it. So, here's another, slightly different go:

Repeats with ties 2.JPG (111.57 KiB) Viewed 7121 times

[Anders Hedelin]

I'm sorry but I don't understand how you read the repeat, John and Peter. In the original there are 24 measures without anything in the right hand until the 25th. Then from the 28th measure, the right-hand notes are held into the repeat, but only there appearing in the beginning of that (the repeat!).

What might be confusing is the use of "1st ending" and "1st repeat", as if they were coupled, when there's no indication of there being more than one repeat.

[Peter Thomsen]

… In the original there are 24 measures without anything in the right hand until the 25th. Then from the 28th measure, the right-hand notes are held into the repeat, but only there appearing in the beginning of that (the repeat!) …

musicus,

We need you to make this clear:

Should the right hand dyad in the first four measures be played on the second pass only?

[musicus]

Thank you, that is what I meant. I am examining how you did it.

This is what I meant:
Repeats with ties.JPG
It seems you have B natural in the same 'chord' as B flat. Take a look at Peter's spelling and see if that's what you want.

[musicus]

I have been looking at your solution but I can't seem to get it completely. See attached. How do I get rid of the notes in layer 3? If I erase them, the backwards ties also get erased.

Is there a way to show a tie going into measure 1?

If you don't want the repeat to have prima and seconda volta endings, which would take quite a few measures in this case, you could add an extra backwards tie to the first notes in the first measure (which would be quite clear together with your comment).

I know this method is a little circumstantial, but here's what I would do. As there are ties there already you may need a workaround: In the first measure, write a dotted halfnote in layer 3 with the same pitch, value and stem direction as the one already there, give both notes ties and drag those backwards with the Special Tools > Tie Tool.

[musicus]

Thanks but that doesn't do it for me. Good point about the C-flat though.

Some ideas for the layout.


test3.jpg

[musicus]

Thanks, I agree with your point about the C-flat.

Second attempt. Hope it is right this time:

repeats.jpeg
If you really want the B naturals, you should add natural signs, or renotate as C-flats as in Peters example.

[musicus]

I have left out the music for 24 measures because I didn't want it to be viewed and they are not crucial to my question.

I'm sorry but I don't understand how you read the repeat, John and Peter. In the original there are 24 measures without anything in the right hand until the 25th. Then from the 28th measure, the right-hand notes are held into the repeat, but only there appearing in the beginning of that (the repeat!).

What might be confusing is the use of "1st ending" and "1st repeat", as if they were coupled, when there's no indication of there being more than one repeat.

[musicus]

I'll examine it and clarify it since it is definitely causing some confusion. The chords that appear in RH at beginning are only held over from the repeat. They are not actually played at the beginning.

… In the original there are 24 measures without anything in the right hand until the 25th. Then from the 28th measure, the right-hand notes are held into the repeat, but only there appearing in the beginning of that (the repeat!) …

musicus,

We need you to make this clear:

Should the right hand dyad in the first four measures be played on the second pass only?

[musicus]

Still trying to figure out your solution...

Is there a way to show a tie going into measure 1?

If you don't want the repeat to have prima and seconda volta endings, which would take quite a few measures in this case, you could add an extra backwards tie to the first notes in the first measure (which would be quite clear together with your comment).

I know this method is a little circumstantial, but here's what I would do. As there are ties there already you may need a workaround: In the first measure, write a dotted halfnote in layer 3 with the same pitch, value and stem direction as the one already there, give both notes ties and drag those backwards with the Special Tools > Tie Tool.

[motet]

Tools->Advanced Tools->Special Tools->Tie

[John Ruggero]

I am now somewhat confused, but if you want the right hand in bars 1-4 played the second time only, then just eliminate those notes in the version I posted, assuming the rest is correct. But you probably should just write it all out without any repeat marks.

[Peter Thomsen]

musicus,

A principle for music engraving:
Not only should the layout be easy to understand, it should also be impossible to misunderstand.

As you can see from this thread, it is possible to misunderstand your layout.

1) Should the right hand dyad in the first four measures be played on the second pass only?

2) What happens in the right hand after the second pass? - is there a right hand dyad, tied from the last measure of the second pass?

Consider John Ruggero’s suggestion:
“you probably should just write it all out without any repeat marks”

Another principle for music engraving:
When in doubt, write it out.

[Anders Hedelin]

Still trying to figure out your solution...

If you decide to write out the repeat, we don't have to bother about the misplaced notes in layer three. I'm not sure how you entered them, but I could try to explain how I did it - if you still want to keep the repeat as in your original?

Otherwise I would think John's version (with his edit omitting the right-hand notes in the first 4 measures) quite difficult to misunderstand.

[musicus]

Thank you to all who have posted solutions. Regarded the tie over to the beginning I came up with the attached solution which although not ideal at least doesn't over-clutter the score. Still considering the C-flat as opposed to B. Please let me know if the attached solution is still confusing. Thanks again.

In the attached piece I would like to have a tie going into the first
chord (Bb - B) which would be held over from the first ending.
Is there a way to show a tie going into measure 1?

[John Ruggero]

The natural for the B should appear at the beginning of ms. 26 and 27 as well, and probably every time the augmented octave is restruck.

There is a unwritten rule that many composers adhere to: Convey what you want through universally understood musical symbols. Only use words when the necessary symbols don't exist. Since that is not the case here, I wouldn't notate this as you have, but would simply write it out if first and second endings were found unappealing.