tied over into beginning
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In the attached piece I would like to have a tie going into the first
chord (Bb - B) which would be held over from the first ending.
Is there a way to show a tie going into measure 1?
chord (Bb - B) which would be held over from the first ending.
Is there a way to show a tie going into measure 1?
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If you don't want the repeat to have prima and seconda volta endings, which would take quite a few measures in this case, you could add an extra backwards tie to the first notes in the first measure (which would be quite clear together with your comment).
I know this method is a little circumstantial, but here's what I would do. As there are ties there already you may need a workaround: In the first measure, write a dotted halfnote in layer 3 with the same pitch, value and stem direction as the one already there, give both notes ties and drag those backwards with the Special Tools > Tie Tool.
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- Peter Thomsen
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Some ideas for the layout.
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This is what I meant:
It seems you have B natural in the same 'chord' as B flat. Take a look at Peter's spelling and see if that's what you want.Finale 26.3, 27.4.1
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- John Ruggero
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Second attempt. Hope it is right this time:
If you really want the B naturals, you should add natural signs, or renotate as C-flats as in Peters example.
If you really want the B naturals, you should add natural signs, or renotate as C-flats as in Peters example.
Last edited by John Ruggero on Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Hm, it seems that we have a different reading of the the repeat. The first four bars in the right hand is for the repeat only, isn't it. So, here's another, slightly different go:
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I'm sorry but I don't understand how you read the repeat, John and Peter. In the original there are 24 measures without anything in the right hand until the 25th. Then from the 28th measure, the right-hand notes are held into the repeat, but only there appearing in the beginning of that (the repeat!).
What might be confusing is the use of "1st ending" and "1st repeat", as if they were coupled, when there's no indication of there being more than one repeat.
What might be confusing is the use of "1st ending" and "1st repeat", as if they were coupled, when there's no indication of there being more than one repeat.
Last edited by Anders Hedelin on Wed Feb 26, 2020 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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musicus,Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:53 pm… In the original there are 24 measures without anything in the right hand until the 25th. Then from the 28th measure, the right-hand notes are held into the repeat, but only there appearing in the beginning of that (the repeat!) …
We need you to make this clear:
Should the right hand dyad in the first four measures be played on the second pass only?
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Thank you, that is what I meant. I am examining how you did it.
Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:46 pmThis is what I meant:
Repeats with ties.JPG
It seems you have B natural in the same 'chord' as B flat. Take a look at Peter's spelling and see if that's what you want.
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I have been looking at your solution but I can't seem to get it completely. See attached. How do I get rid of the notes in layer 3? If I erase them, the backwards ties also get erased.
Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:51 pmIf you don't want the repeat to have prima and seconda volta endings, which would take quite a few measures in this case, you could add an extra backwards tie to the first notes in the first measure (which would be quite clear together with your comment).
I know this method is a little circumstantial, but here's what I would do. As there are ties there already you may need a workaround: In the first measure, write a dotted halfnote in layer 3 with the same pitch, value and stem direction as the one already there, give both notes ties and drag those backwards with the Special Tools > Tie Tool.
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Last edited by musicus on Thu Feb 27, 2020 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thanks, I agree with your point about the C-flat.
John Ruggero wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:01 pmSecond attempt. Hope it is right this time:
repeats.jpeg
If you really want the B naturals, you should add natural signs, or renotate as C-flats as in Peters example.
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I have left out the music for 24 measures because I didn't want it to be viewed and they are not crucial to my question.
Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:53 pmI'm sorry but I don't understand how you read the repeat, John and Peter. In the original there are 24 measures without anything in the right hand until the 25th. Then from the 28th measure, the right-hand notes are held into the repeat, but only there appearing in the beginning of that (the repeat!).
What might be confusing is the use of "1st ending" and "1st repeat", as if they were coupled, when there's no indication of there being more than one repeat.
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I'll examine it and clarify it since it is definitely causing some confusion. The chords that appear in RH at beginning are only held over from the repeat. They are not actually played at the beginning.
Peter Thomsen wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:37 pmmusicus,Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 8:53 pm… In the original there are 24 measures without anything in the right hand until the 25th. Then from the 28th measure, the right-hand notes are held into the repeat, but only there appearing in the beginning of that (the repeat!) …
We need you to make this clear:
Should the right hand dyad in the first four measures be played on the second pass only?
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Still trying to figure out your solution...
Anders Hedelin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 6:51 pmIf you don't want the repeat to have prima and seconda volta endings, which would take quite a few measures in this case, you could add an extra backwards tie to the first notes in the first measure (which would be quite clear together with your comment).
I know this method is a little circumstantial, but here's what I would do. As there are ties there already you may need a workaround: In the first measure, write a dotted halfnote in layer 3 with the same pitch, value and stem direction as the one already there, give both notes ties and drag those backwards with the Special Tools > Tie Tool.
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I am now somewhat confused, but if you want the right hand in bars 1-4 played the second time only, then just eliminate those notes in the version I posted, assuming the rest is correct. But you probably should just write it all out without any repeat marks.
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musicus,
A principle for music engraving:
Not only should the layout be easy to understand, it should also be impossible to misunderstand.
As you can see from this thread, it is possible to misunderstand your layout.
1) Should the right hand dyad in the first four measures be played on the second pass only?
2) What happens in the right hand after the second pass? - is there a right hand dyad, tied from the last measure of the second pass?
Consider John Ruggero’s suggestion:
“you probably should just write it all out without any repeat marks”
Another principle for music engraving:
When in doubt, write it out.
A principle for music engraving:
Not only should the layout be easy to understand, it should also be impossible to misunderstand.
As you can see from this thread, it is possible to misunderstand your layout.
1) Should the right hand dyad in the first four measures be played on the second pass only?
2) What happens in the right hand after the second pass? - is there a right hand dyad, tied from the last measure of the second pass?
Consider John Ruggero’s suggestion:
“you probably should just write it all out without any repeat marks”
Another principle for music engraving:
When in doubt, write it out.
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If you decide to write out the repeat, we don't have to bother about the misplaced notes in layer three. I'm not sure how you entered them, but I could try to explain how I did it - if you still want to keep the repeat as in your original?
Otherwise I would think John's version (with his edit omitting the right-hand notes in the first 4 measures) quite difficult to misunderstand.
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Thank you to all who have posted solutions. Regarded the tie over to the beginning I came up with the attached solution which although not ideal at least doesn't over-clutter the score. Still considering the C-flat as opposed to B. Please let me know if the attached solution is still confusing. Thanks again.
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The natural for the B should appear at the beginning of ms. 26 and 27 as well, and probably every time the augmented octave is restruck.
There is a unwritten rule that many composers adhere to: Convey what you want through universally understood musical symbols. Only use words when the necessary symbols don't exist. Since that is not the case here, I wouldn't notate this as you have, but would simply write it out if first and second endings were found unappealing.
There is a unwritten rule that many composers adhere to: Convey what you want through universally understood musical symbols. Only use words when the necessary symbols don't exist. Since that is not the case here, I wouldn't notate this as you have, but would simply write it out if first and second endings were found unappealing.
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"The better the composer, the better the notation."
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"The better the composer, the better the notation."