Cleaning up linked parts

General notation questions, including advanced notation, formatting, etc., go here.

Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker

Post Reply
Vombatidae
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 1:51 am
Finale Version: 25.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by Vombatidae » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:16 pm

Working on final clean-up for my largest project to date, and I'm desperately looking for ways to improve my workflow.

Almost all of the entry/arranging/editing was done in the score, scroll mode, concert pitch. Then for each linked part I apply the page layout, fit the music to the systems (hurrah for JW) and get the page breaks where I want them. (3-4 pages per part.) So far so good.

However, when I go into the parts to check them, there are some serious time drains for things I know how to do but take forever manually. My current top three offenders are:
  • Fix the direction of stems, ties, slurs, and some articulations, which are often a random hodgepodge. This mostly seems to be a problem with transposing and/or layered parts.
  • Align hairpins and dynamics to some semblance of a baseline
  • Remove remaining collisions between dynamics, hairpins, slurs, articulations, etc.
There are probably plugins and/or best practices for these, so I'm all ears - otherwise I'm probably looking at a minimum of 20 hours of tedium.

Thanks!


User avatar
miker
Posts: 5993
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by miker » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:36 pm

Take a look at Elbsound’s Perfect Layout.

https://elbsound.studio/perfect-layout/
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8225
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:52 pm

Perfect Layout will certainly help.

If you've been flipping or freezing stems, articulations, etc. in concert-pitch view, I'm afraid that was a mistake. If your final conductor's score is going to be in concert pitch, then make that score as a "part" and do the flipping and freezing there so it doesn't affect the other parts. If on the other hand you'll have a normal score but want to do all your composing/arranging in concert pitch, live with the messiness while you're entering music, then switch to transposed view and only then do the cleanup.

Vombatidae
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 1:51 am
Finale Version: 25.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by Vombatidae » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:32 pm

If you've been flipping or freezing stems, articulations, etc. in concert-pitch view, I'm afraid that was a mistake
I haven't. The only manual tweaking I ever do on the score is to nudge expressions or hairpins to avoid the most egregious collisions.

In many cases the stem/tie directions are wrong in the score in both concert and transposed view. How they got that way, I'm not sure. (It may have something to do with the habit of cutting and pasting from different staves and layers to get the pattern I want, and using the transposition tool and simple edit to change the pitches.) Telling Finale to apply the default direction does no good either, though explicit up/down does. It seems like it looses track of which way is up. ;)

Perfect layout sounds nice, but $225 (the cheapest version that would be usable in my situation) is a bit steep for me as a non-commercial user - I do maybe two or three arrangements a year for groups in which I play euph/trombone.

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8225
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Tue Apr 14, 2020 8:37 pm

Can you paste a small excerpt with the confused stems? There may be a way of resetting them.

User avatar
miker
Posts: 5993
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by miker » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:05 pm

$285 or 20+ hours of tedium? That’s less than $15 per hour. Your choice!
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

Vombatidae
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 1:51 am
Finale Version: 25.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by Vombatidae » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:45 pm

Ok, there wasn't much left after I got it small enough to post. And an interesting side effect, is that after stripping out this section, and doing File maintenance to remove deleted items, applying default direction to the stems and slurs started working. (And yes, I tried those steps again on the full version, they still don't help.)

However, you can still see the upside down ties in the alto and bass clarinets. Figuring a general solution to that would be helpful.

Thanks

User avatar
N Grossingink
Posts: 1786
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:50 pm
Finale Version: 27.3
Operating System: Mac

Post by N Grossingink » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:52 pm

Vombatidae wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:45 pm
However, you can still see the upside down ties in the alto and bass clarinets. Figuring a general solution to that would be helpful.
Utilities Menu > Change > Ties > Set "direction" to automatic.

Also, in the plugin menu > TG Tools is "Align/Move Dynamics".
N. Grossingink
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link


Mac Mini 2014 2.6 Ghz, 8Gb RAM
OSX 10.15.7
Finale 2012c, 25.5, 26.3, 27.3

Vombatidae
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 1:51 am
Finale Version: 25.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by Vombatidae » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:54 pm

$285 or 20+ hours of tedium? That’s less than $15 per hour. Your choice!
True enough. ...but I also need to figure in the overhead time to install it, register it, learn to use it, allow for general rework created by the tooling change, etc. Pretty sure by the time I get done playing with it, it will slow things down instead of speed them up. :D

Also, I keep hoping that either Finale will start doing (what I consider) basic formatting out-of-the-box on the next upgrade, or Steinberg will switch to a sane licensing system...

Vombatidae
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 1:51 am
Finale Version: 25.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by Vombatidae » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:56 pm

Utilities Menu > Change > Ties > Set "direction" to automatic.
...does absolutely nothing for me, with any combination of options.

User avatar
N Grossingink
Posts: 1786
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:50 pm
Finale Version: 27.3
Operating System: Mac

Post by N Grossingink » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:25 pm

Vombatidae wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:56 pm
Utilities Menu > Change > Ties > Set "direction" to automatic.
...does absolutely nothing for me, with any combination of options.
Make sure you check the checkbox next to "Tie Direction" in order to run that command.
N. Grossingink
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link


Mac Mini 2014 2.6 Ghz, 8Gb RAM
OSX 10.15.7
Finale 2012c, 25.5, 26.3, 27.3

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8225
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:34 pm

On Windows, Alt+KeypadAsterisk will align dynamics and hairpins in the selection. Alt+KeypadMinus will align and move down. Alt+KeypadPlus will align and move up. (I think this works with the Lite version of TGTools that comes with Finale; I have the full version).

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8225
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:36 pm

Jan will run Perfect Layout on a file you send him, to see if it would be helpful.

Vombatidae
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed May 10, 2017 1:51 am
Finale Version: 25.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by Vombatidae » Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:57 pm

Utilities Menu > Change > Ties > Set "direction" to automatic.
...does absolutely nothing for me, with any combination of options.
Make sure you check the checkbox next to "Tie Direction" in order to run that command.
I did. :)

I have literally tried all 12 combinations of "Avoid staff lines", "Remove manual positioning" and "Outer Placement Default/On/Off" and the ties don't change if Automatic is selected. But if I select "Under" or "Over" it works fine.

User avatar
N Grossingink
Posts: 1786
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:50 pm
Finale Version: 27.3
Operating System: Mac

Post by N Grossingink » Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:07 am

If you could post a one page sample of your score it might give us something to go on. Something is up, that's for sure, but I've run out of guesses.
N. Grossingink
Educational Band, Orchestra and Jazz Ensemble a specialty
Sample: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pFF5OeJDeLFGHMRyXrubFqZWXBubErw4/view?usp=share_link


Mac Mini 2014 2.6 Ghz, 8Gb RAM
OSX 10.15.7
Finale 2012c, 25.5, 26.3, 27.3

User avatar
HaraldS
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:46 am
Finale Version: 25.5
Operating System: Windows

Post by HaraldS » Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:24 am

Vombatidae wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:56 pm
Utilities Menu > Change > Ties > Set "direction" to automatic.
...does absolutely nothing for me, with any combination of options.
That's indeed interesting. In your posted file "extract.mus" I do see the problem. Trying to flip the ties with Utilities Menu > Change > Ties > Set "direction" to "automatic" doesn't work here, too.

Note that at all places where the wrong ties occur, the note entries have their "Flip tie" property set. To investigate the problem on a Windows system:
  • open the Alto Clarinet part
  • select Speedy Entry
  • hold CTRL and click on measure 6
  • you will get the Edit Frame dialog box, showing the contents of measure 6 from a technical perspective
  • note that "Flip tie" property in the left column is checked
  • If you uncheck it, the tie reverts to normal behaviour
So you have to uncheck all "Flip ties" properties for proper ties (bad pun intended ;) ). If you have a lot of occurences of the problem (and you obviously have), you could select a bunch of measures and run this JWLua script:

Code: Select all

for noteentry in eachentrysaved(finenv.Region()) do
   noteentry.FlipTie = false
end
Finale 3.0-25.5, German edition, Windows 7
trombonist, pianist, conductor / Recklinghausen, Germany

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8225
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:35 pm

Good sleuthing, Harold! The question is, how does that flag get set? It looks like Alto and Bass Clarinet were made by copying from Clarinets 2 & 3, but if I try to do that from scratch it doesn't set those flags.

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8225
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Wed Apr 15, 2020 5:30 pm

The question is, how does that flag get set? The manual says
Flip Tie. If this check box is selected, you have flipped the tie upside-down, either locally (using Special Tools or Speedy), or by your settings in Document Options - Layers.
But I tried those things and, while it flips the tie, it doesn't set that flag!

Post Reply