How to enter flat 9 chord

General notation questions, including advanced notation, formatting, etc., go here.

Moderators: Peter Thomsen, miker

Post Reply
Rob
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed May 13, 2020 12:06 pm
Finale Version: 2014
Operating System: Mac

Post by Rob » Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:10 am

Hi, I just started working with Finale v26, and I have a slight problem. I'm typing in chords manually, and I can't figure out how to enter a 7 flat 9 chord. In Finale 2014 I would just type in:

F7(b9) and it would appear, but now the b doesn't change to the flat sign. Can't find how to do it in the manual... All help is welcome!

Thanks,

Rob


User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:50 am

Just a wild guess:

1) You are using the Jazz font, right?

2) And in
Document Options - Fonts > Chord: Suffix
you have the font JazzText, right?

3) And in
Document Options - Fonts > Chord: Alteration
you have the font JazzText, right?

What you are doing wrong, is in step 3).
As font for Alteration you should use a music font - e. g. the Jazz font.
The font JazzText is a text font, not a music font.
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

Rob
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed May 13, 2020 12:06 pm
Finale Version: 2014
Operating System: Mac

Post by Rob » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:28 am

Thanks Peter, unfortunately it's not working... I tried a lot of different settings for the alterations and then also all the other stuff, but it seems Finale v26 doesn't recognise the b as a flat...

User avatar
Peter Thomsen
Posts: 6601
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:47 pm
Finale Version: Finale v27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by Peter Thomsen » Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:27 am

Rob wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:28 am
… unfortunately it's not working …
It is working for me.

In the attached Finale document, try entering the chord symbol F7(b9).

F7b9.musx
Mac OS X 12.6.9 (Monterey), Finale user since 1996

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:46 pm

In this file, F7(b9) does respond to typing that in. However, F7b9 does not, even though it is there in the suffixes.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

Bill Stevens
Posts: 662
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:37 pm
Finale Version: Using 26, testing 27
Operating System: Mac

Post by Bill Stevens » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:35 pm

Back to Rob's original post, if you know the suffix number you can type that, so for instance (and your number may not be the same)

F:17 gives you F7(b9)

F:67 gives you F7b9

For suffixes that you use a lot it is handy to have the numbers taped to the wall above your monitor.

::: Bill
Version 26.3 / 27.4 / Mac OS 10.15.5 Catalina
Finale user since the beginning of time.

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 3:51 pm

That is of course one way. However, entering F7b9 should work as expected. It doesn't. If I create a new one, it does respond to typing F7b9, however, the included one doesn't. Quite odd.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:00 pm

I fixed the file. Now F7b9 works. Of course, F7(b9) already worked. Now they both do.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:27 pm

To further explore this, in v26, for sure, they tried to overhaul chords. However, as an example, with the Broadway Copyist file, they chose to use the Finale Copyist Text font for the flat in the F7(b9) chord. The flat in that font does not use the same slot as the Music Fonts (Maestro, Broadway Copyist, and Jazz) do. Thus, trying to type F7(b9) won't work. You can create your own suffix, using the Music font instead of the Text font, and the b will be recognized as a flat. In their attempt to "help" us, they royally messed things up. This has been MakeMusic's MO for a long time, and this is another example of what they have done which has added to users' frustrations. I suppose you could complain to them, but I think that appeal will fall on deaf ears, as they seem to know better about what we want instead of us.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8225
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:45 pm

My take is it's simple incompetence. It continues to worry me. I keep telling myself that tthe current owner will eventually tire of it, and there is enough inherent value in Finale that it will be sold to someone who is willing to invest in good people.

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:26 pm

I just inspected the Library for the Expanded Times Suffixes with the same error as in the Broadway copyist file. I think they probably had Elementary grade students doing their work for them, possibly as a cost saving measure. On the other hand, they probably would have done a better job, so maybe it's the regular programmers at non-work again.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8225
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:40 pm

I think it's poor management and QA. The programmers made it work for that one situation. But no one thought outside that narrow box. I also wonder if they rely too much on beta testing, which does not substitute for real testing. Beta testers will use Finale as they usually do, which is a help, but you really need to systematically go through all you can think of (try all the fonts, in this case), make sure all the features and plug-ins still work, etc. You can't expect beta testers to do that.

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:56 pm

That might be the case. However, there are bugs that have been reported for years that have gone unfixed. Beta testers aren't needed in that case, except to test the "fixed" version of the program after the bugs are fixed. in that case, MakeMusic should alert the testers to the fixes and have them check out the behavior as to the bug-fixed version.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
miker
Posts: 5993
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:28 pm
Finale Version: Finale 27.4
Operating System: Mac

Post by miker » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:26 pm

I agree with Motet. And Zuill. It’s incompetence, and a total disregard for customer usage and feedback. But hey, why should they care? They’re only in it for the money, and a big payout (or tax write-off) when us old farts die off, and the new kids go with Dorico.
Finale 27 | SmartScorePro 64
Mac OS 13.2.1 Ventura
Copyist for Barbershop Harmony Society

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8225
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:33 pm

You'd think, for example, that fixing the temp file bug that causes work to be lost because it can't be saved would be in their best interest. I wonder how many support tickets users have filed over this, and it's got to make people very angry to lose a day's work. I continue to see people complain about this on Facebook and get the advice to ditch Finale for Dorico or Sibelius. As a career software engineer I can tell you that the fix for this is simple (leave open or otherwise lock temp files until they're truly no longer needed, which will prevent the OS from deleting them). The fix should take a day at most, and there's really nothing to test. The bug has been around for several years.

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:39 pm

I've never had a problem with temp files. I am not sure why so many others do.

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8225
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:12 pm

Because you created your own temp file directory, which the OS doesn't manage.

User avatar
zuill
Posts: 4418
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:35 pm
Finale Version: Finale 2011-v26.3.1
Operating System: Windows

Post by zuill » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:49 pm

I used Finale for many years before ever creating a designated temp folder. I didn't have problems then either. I'm not sure why I started using a designated folder. Maybe you suggested it?

Zuill
Windows 10, Finale 2011-v26.3.1
"When all is said and done, more is said than done."

User avatar
motet
Posts: 8225
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:33 pm
Finale Version: 2014.5,2011,2005,27
Operating System: Windows

Post by motet » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:59 am

I don't remember. I think the temp file bug is more likely to occur if you leave Finale open for a long time. The bug first appeared maybe with Finale 2011? Again, I don't remember exactly.

Post Reply