Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

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Tomas E
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Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by Tomas E » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:17 pm

I want to place pedal on/off symbols in my score with the Articulation tool. When trying to make them line up horizontally I can't find any way to do that besides manually dragging them into position, which is literally a drag. If I change the default vertical position they always adjust themselves to the note in question. So, unless I insert notes of the same pitch all over the staff, this will not work.

Therefore I'm wondering if it is notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

I don't have any piano litterature at hand, nor sheet music. I'm writing for guitar, and thus I'm only using them since the Finale support haven't yet replied to my MIDI hold issue I wrote about in another thread.

The final sheet music will not contain these symbols, they are for playback only. Still, if I feel I'd like to write something for piano it would be good to know which rules apply.
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by zuill » Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:41 pm

HP respects the Smart Line pedal marking (Ped followed by *) for playback. Is that something that would help to get things lined up? Another approach is to create expressions for playback that could be set to align more readily than Articulations.

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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by Tomas E » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:51 pm

zuill wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:41 pm
HP respects the Smart Line pedal marking (Ped followed by *) for playback. Is that something that would help to get things lined up?

Zuill
This method is much better. Thanks!

However, the hold effect is not present. I use the Standard setting in HP Prefs, and the MIDI data are set as follows.

HP Midi Data.png

Added: I inserted some Ped markings with the Articulation tool and they do their job. That should mean that all MIDI settings are correct. I can't figure out why the Smart Shapes Ped doesn't work.
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Tomas E
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by Tomas E » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:16 pm

There is a difference between the Articulation tool method and the Smart Shape tool method.

When using the Articulation tool the symbols attach to the note in the active layer. Therefore it's necessary to change the active layer before inserting them, if there are notes in other layers that need the Ped effect.
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by zuill » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:16 pm

HP is finicky. I created a test file in which the Smart line was inconsistent. I had 2 groups of Piano. When I start with music in the Bass Staff, the pedal is honored. However, if it starts with only Treble, the Ped does not trigger the sustain, unless I drag it up to the Treble Staff. Go figure. However, the other group, with the same notation does honor the Ped for sustain.

So, HP is hit and miss. I have been reporting these kind of behaviors since the beginning of HP. Robert P. ( the creator of HP) used to respond to my reports, and made necessary fixes. However, when he gave control all over to MakeMusic, it has gone downhill since. It is, after all, called Human Playback, and as we know, humans can be unpredictable. Maybe they should create something called Robot Playback, and that would play perfectly.

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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by zuill » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:27 pm

Followup: when I go to the part, the Piano group that wouldn't sustain in the Score now sustains in the Part.

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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by John Ruggero » Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:22 pm

Back to your original question. No it is not standard for the Ped. * style of pedal markings to align. In fact even a single Ped. doesn't have to align with its own * release.

For examples of extensive Ped. * markings check out:

https://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/usim ... mplete.pdf

The all-bracket system of pedaling is different in that there is more of tendency for the separate brackets (as opposed to the connected ones, which, of course, are usually aligned) to align in groups that keep them from being too far a away from the lowest notes on the staff.
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by David Ward » Thu Jun 25, 2020 5:00 pm

John Ruggero wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:22 pm
… … …https://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/usim ... mplete.pdf … … …
Interesting to see this as I've recently been trying to align these markings in a vocal score (always my bête noire).
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by Michel R E » Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:04 pm

what I find interesting is that there are pedal on markings: Ped., but not the pedal off markings: *
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by John Ruggero » Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:05 pm

The Ped. without a * is the way some have indicated overlapping pedal while still using the old system.

It's interesting that Chopin never hit on this way of showing overlapping pedal and this has created many issues. The few times he uses a Ped. without an * it means other things.

After the first Chopin-Godowsky Etude there are plenty of pedal release asterisks.
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by Tomas E » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:51 pm

John Ruggero wrote:
Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:22 pm
Back to your original question. No it is not standard for the Ped. * style of pedal markings to align. In fact even a single Ped. doesn't have to align with its own * release.

For examples of extensive Ped. * markings check out:

https://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/usim ... mplete.pdf
Thanks! 👍
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by Tomas E » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:59 pm

Maybe O.T. Come to think of the left pedal of a Grand Piano, what's it called and what are the on/off symbols for that one?

I'll answer this one myself since I seem to have found a good illustration video on YT.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwYBBWFDZRA
Last edited by Tomas E on Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by Michel R E » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:46 pm

Tomas E wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:59 pm
Maybe O.T. Come to think of the left pedal of a Grand Piano, what's it called and what are the on/off symbols for that one?
the left pedal is the Una Corda pedal, usually marked U.C. it moves the interior mechanism off to one side so that the hammers are striking a single string instead of all three. to indicate the return to normal position, write 3 corda.

the middle pedal, on a grand piano, is the sustain pedal. it holds any motes that are currently depressed on the keyboard, as long as you hold that pedal down, those notes will continue to resonate for however long they would normally do so, or resonate once again if struck again. marked with Sost. ped., usually a dotted or dashed line, and a hook that shows where the "off" happens.

the right hand pedal is the regular pedal, that is just indicated with Ped. either the fancy font version, or the word Ped. and a horizontal line. To indicate that pedal off use either the * symbol, or have your horizontal line end with a vertical hook.
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by Tomas E » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:51 pm

Michel R E wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:46 pm
Tomas E wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:59 pm
Maybe O.T. Come to think of the left pedal of a Grand Piano, what's it called and what are the on/off symbols for that one?
the left pedal is the Una Corda pedal, usually marked U.C. it moves the interior mechanism off to one side so that the hammers are striking a single string instead of all three. to indicate the return to normal position, write 3 corda.

the middle pedal, on a grand piano, is the sustain pedal. it holds any motes that are currently depressed on the keyboard, as long as you hold that pedal down, those notes will continue to resonate for however long they would normally do so, or resonate once again if struck again. marked with Sost. ped., usually a dotted or dashed line, and a hook that shows where the "off" happens.

the right hand pedal is the regular pedal, that is just indicated with Ped. either the fancy font version, or the word Ped. and a horizontal line. To indicate that pedal off use either the * symbol, or have your horizontal line end with a vertical hook.
Ok, thanks! 👍 I just edited my post adding a link to YouTube, at the same time as you were writing this I suppose.
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by Peter Thomsen » Fri Jun 26, 2020 5:42 pm

Michel R E wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:46 pm
… to indicate the return to normal position, write 3 corda …
I could be wrong, but I think that the correct italian phrase is

tre corde

(corde, ending with ‘e’, is plural)
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by Michel R E » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:02 pm

thank-you for the corrections.
I haven't written anything for piano in a very long time, so this type of detail is off the top of my head.
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by smw_brighton » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:12 pm

Slightly OT, but when I was training as a pianist at music college (many years ago!) the middle pedal was referred to as the "sostenuto" pedal (name apparently patented by Steinway) while the right one was the "sustain" (or "damper") pedal. Interestingly, una corda pedals on many upright pianos alter the sound by moving the hammers closer to the strings (instead of sideways) so that they hit them at a lower velocity.
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by Anders Hedelin » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:32 pm

On upright pianos there might also be a middle pedal - the 'neighbour pedal' - putting a felt between the hammers and the strings. Quite useful if you want to compose something in the middle of the night. Otherwise perhaps not.
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Re: Is it notation standard for the pedal on/off symbols to not follow a horizontal line?

Post by Michel R E » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:23 pm

my upright has a middle pedal, it acts like a poor-man's sostenuto pedal, it holds all notes below the C 2 octaves down from middle C, exactly like a sustain pedal would.
My U.C. pedal moves the entire inner workings closer to the strings, not a real U.C. but the effect is slightly muted.
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